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It's about time for IP Office - to get rid of RFC-868

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Albus

Vendor
Apr 17, 2003
66
CH
What do you think about this? Do you have complaints too and how do you solve this mess?

There are a lot of threads in this forum about issues with the time in IP Office. Most of them are about the time being wrong for complete hours. Some of these threats are dated from year 2004 while others are quite new. This shows us, that this may be the oldest problem in IP Office. And still not taken serious by the Product House!

Why is it important to have the correct time in the IP Office?
The time is displayed in the phones, used in the call log, in SMDR and I think most important, in time profiles. As time profiles are more useful then ever, it's a pity when the answering machine kicks in at the wrong time!

What is it all about?
First of all it is very important to know that the 'Time Server' specified in the system-tab means a RFC-868 Time server.
This is a very old protocol, published in 1983. Read here: - it is just one page. This has nothing to do with what you normally know as 'Time Server' which can be found all over the internet. These are NTP Server's (Network Time Protocol - RFC 1305, 1769, 2030 and 4330)

RFC-868 - In a nutshell:
Use port 37, ether UDP or TCP, and get a 32bit binary number counting the seconds since 00:00 (midnight) 1 January 1900 GMT.
BTW: This is enough until year 2036, then it’s 1900 again ;-)

Daylight saving.
First introduced in 1986. This explains why RFC-868 doesn't care about it.

Are there public servers supporting RFC-868?
No. NTP is much more reliable. If you google for 'time server' you will find a lot of NTP servers, but probably no RFC-868 server. And if you find one, then it is very likely that the service will discontinue soon. This happened at NIST. Read here: (the part at the bottom in mint).

How does IP Office use RFC-868?
IP Office makes no use of the TCP method, it just works with UDP. This is important if you use some RFC-868 Client-Tools available. Most of them use just TCP, so you don’t get the same time information as the IPO would.
But more important, it does not convert the time correctly. Since a proper RFC-868 server sends the time in GMT, it is up to the client to add the offset relative to GMT as well as an extra hour for the daylight saving, if applicable. IPO can add an offset for the time zone, but has no knowledge about daylight saving!

What about the time server in Voicemail Lite/Pro and Manager?
They send the system time from the PC, just as you can read it in the system tray. This means, the time sent by these tools are already converted to the local time zone and daylight saving. This is not what a RFC-868 server should do! The consequence of this is, that it is not possible to use a 3rd-Party RFC-868 server. Except that server is written the same wrong way...

Is it save to use Voicemail Lite/Pro as time server?
No. Not 100%. If you leave the time server address at its default 0.0.0.0 the IPO will first try the voicemail. If this is not possible for some reason, then IPO broadcasts to find a server. If it finds one on the subnet an get the time, it is plain GMT. This is only valid if you are in Great Britain during winter time.
This can be omitted by setting this address to the voicemail server.

What can you do if you have an Embedded VM or no network at all?
Good question! This has not been answered satisfyingly until now.

Are there workarounds for system without Voicemail Lite/Pro or with no network at all?
If you administer the system on site, then you have Manager running. That way IPO gets the time from your service PC. After that, it will free run. This may be accurate enough.
Another way is to create a service that connects to the internet or even another IPO. Leave the connection for about an hour to let it sync the time. You will have to set the time server to a Voicemail or Manager in your network.
Both ideas are just workarounds, because they leave the system over a long period without a valid time source and are not suitable for daylight saving change.

What is Avaya doing do solve this problems?
Nothing. The best I ever heard is that NTP 'may' be implemented, but 'not before version 5.0’. We will see 3 times daylight time changes until then!

How do other systems handle this?
Some use NTP. Best if you can set a DNS-Name like 'pool.ntp.org'.
Other just takes the date and time out of the ISDN messages. Very simple! Just make a call and the time is set! It can be that easy.

What can you do to get Avaya changing this?
Report your problems! Ask to change that!
 
I have no issues with any of the times on the couple hundred IPO I have implemented, or service.

 
A list of TIME servers on the internet will do.

NIHIL NOVI SUB SOLE
 
Other just takes the date and time out of the ISDN messages. Very simple! Just make a call and the time is set! It can be that easy.

What can you do to get Avaya changing this?
Report your problems! Ask to change that!

If you are on the latest releases you can do this

Set a 5410,5610,5420 or a 5620/21 as a system phone
Then dial *9000* and press "hold"
Then you set the time and date or if there is a password set first enter the password
Just as easy as calling for the time
Avaya regornized the problem and made a solution
But i argee that it uses an old protocol but there are still a few around on the world wide web


ACA - Implement IP Office
ACA - Voice Services Management
______________
Women and cats can do as they please and men and dogs should relax and get used to the idea!
 

Thanks for your answers.
But sorry, they don’t help. It's more or less what I get from Avaya.

@aarenot: If all your installations have a Voicemail Lite/Pro, then there is no problem at all. But I'm really interested to hear what you do with installations with Embedded VM.

@intrigrant: There is no list of TIME servers on the internet. Avaya told me this too. But when I ask for a single, working IP-Address of a reliable TIME server (not NTP), then there is silence.

@tlpeter: I know this. That's funny if you have a linux PC on the subnet.
Problem 1 is the fact about time-offset and daylight saving which permits the use of this linux machine.
Problem 2 is with Manager older than 6.1(9) it was not possible to disable the time client in IPO. If you try to enter 0.0.0.1 then Manager will not accept this. Now with the latest release it is marked as faulty configuration, but it can be saved.
This means, that it was possible to do the *9000* HOLD, but after you leave the site, the time is wrong again because someone attached a machine with another RFC-868 Server.

There are other hints to point the address to a windows server or even the PCD in the network. This is no solution because windows uses NTP, not RFC-868.

But anyway, if you manage to have the correct time now, what do you do at the end of March and October?
I read a post, where someone suggests visiting the customer and connecting the service PC to the IPO. That may be a solution, just wondering who pays that.

Another way is to have a 3rd-Party RFC-868 Server on the subnet and logon twice a year to alter the time offset.
But, hey! This is not serious!


Just a wild guess from me:
Most of you don’t see a problem because a lot of installations are with POTS phones and no usage of time profiles.
Or you don’t give the user a ‘Time of Day’ button. But even if you do, the default, and after restart is to show username instead of the date and time.
And you as technicians don’t see it, because there is nothing about this in any log or monitor trace, but as soon as your Manager is up, the system gets the time form your service PC making you think all is fine.

 
90% of my system have a Voicemail PC which makes time easy - & there is no reason why the VM pc cannot be synched to a NTP server

Prior to V3.0 the time could be set from a system manager handset if no time server existed (2030 handset :) ) unfortunatly it has taken Avaya until V4.0 to implement this feature on DS handsets , along with Visual Voice.

When a system has embedded VM I try to avoid using time profiles so the clock is no longer an issue, Embedded VM is really only suitable for small companies that often have variable working hours so a manual Nigh Service is not usually an issue

A switch to NTP Is a good Idea but I do not believe it was as important as restoring the features lost form the DT series handsets.
 
The only time I have found the time an issue is a couple of our sites are not connected to a network at all.

I dial into these sites every 6 momths (Daylight Saving times) setup and Internet Dialup Service and in RFC-868 time server IP address in the system tab and point all IP traffic to go out on that service. Set the Time Offset correctly (as you say, RFC-868 doesn't care about GMT/BST) and reboot the system.

Dial in again and remove the internet ervice and IP routes so it doens't dialup all the time to check the system time and leave it alone for another 6 months.

I imagine there will be a point when there are no RFC-868 server on the net as a couple that I have used in the past have been switched off. But for now they are there and it's not really an issue.

Jamie Green

ACA:Implement - IP Office
ACS:Implement - IP Office


Fooball is not a matter of life and death-It is far more important!!!!
 
So, who would be interested in a subscription based access to a time server of this sort. What would this be worth on a per system subscription basis?

 
I dont understand what you mean.
To have the correct time on a system is something that is just expected, nothing else. For networked devices NTP is the standard to achieve this and is normally implemented with a centralized source in the company. Even IP-DECT uses NTP, it's only the IPO itself wich must be synced another way.

And again, If someone can post a valid IP Address of a working RFC-868 Server...
 
Try this one,


Library time4.ucla.edu
Stratum: 2
164.67.41.8 RFC 868, RFC 1305/1769

___________________________________________
It works! Now if only I could remember what I did...
___________________________________________
 
I haven't tried it but if you run the following program on one of your computers with port 37 open from the internet.


You should be able to sync all your own customers with you timeserver, if one of your customers is in another timezone then your able to set the "Time Offset" in your avaya.

greetzzz...Bas

___________________________________________
It works! Now if only I could remember what I did...
___________________________________________
 
yeh, a technology from 1983 is so out of date. I say that Avaya ditch it all and go for RFC2549.
 
You are free to submit a NFR (New Feature Request ) to Avaya.
If i knew were to send it i would do it straight away, there seems t obe a special mail address for it.

NIHIL NOVI SUB SOLE
 
@intrigrant

iponfr at avaya dot com

greetzz...Bas

___________________________________________
It works! Now if only I could remember what I did...
___________________________________________
 
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