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Librarian wants to ban 5-time reading champ from contest
11

Librarian wants to ban 5-time reading champ from contest

RE: Librarian wants to ban 5-time reading champ from contest

It's like telling Bobby Fischer he can't participate in any more chess matches because he was too good and someone else should have a chance to win. You can substitute Fischer with any number of talented others like Tiger Woods, Muhammad Ali, Bill Gates, Henry Ford etc.

The librarian was wrong IMHO.

sam

RE: Librarian wants to ban 5-time reading champ from contest

We had a similar issue at an old workplace of mine. Every year at the annual Christmas party there would be awards handed out. One of the awards was the Spirit award for the employeee that best exemplified team spirit and morale boosting. Naturally, there was one employee that was far beyond everyone else and she won the award 5 times running and would have continued to win for as long as she was eligible. My wife (a Librarian BTW) came up with the elegant and appropriate solution that was obviously overlooked by everyone in the case posted. The award is now named in honour of said employee and was presented by same until her retirement. (much to her delight)

In another personal anecdote, my eldest was an avid reader and every year there was a Summer Reading Contest hosted by our local Library. For every 15 minutes a child spent reading, the Parent could check off a box for completion. I think 10 boxes allowed for a submission into a draw for a prize. My son would do the 150 minutes required in an afternoon. He would typically read 1 to 2 novels a day during the summer. Rather than submit his name 3 or 4 times a day, I instead told him he would get 1 submission per book. (These were Harry Potter Sized books BTW). He still won a prize every year and once the grand prize so it was a win win all around.

Suffice it to say, from my experience, I think everyone involved messed up. There was an opportunity here to teach a child how winning isn't everything and a positive situation is now in chaos. For shame.

**********************************************
What's most important is that you realise ... There is no spoon.

RE: Librarian wants to ban 5-time reading champ from contest

Myself and a friend got banned from a regular pub quiz some years ago for much the same reason - to give other people a chance.

RE: Librarian wants to ban 5-time reading champ from contest

I fully believe the librarian is wrong, but it's indicative of "no fail", "competition is bad" policies that are become so pervasive. It feeds the entitlement mentality. Rather than award the winners who've earned their prizes, let's just redistribute the prizes.

What lesson is that teaching? It's teaching that hard work does not pay off; that doing the very minimum offers equal opportunity of winning. What it's not teaching is reality.

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RE: Librarian wants to ban 5-time reading champ from contest

@CajunCenturion

I'm not sure I agree with your entitlement mentality. I agree that it can be perceived this way but there are actions that the Adults can take to ensure that all parties come out ahead. My personal solution when faced with the same situation was handicapping. Handicapping is a widely accepted as fair competition even in betting situations such as horse racing. In my situation, my child learned a lesson in fair play and got a shot to his ego at the same time. I do not believe that winning is the end all be all of life. It's the journey that matters. I've always taught my kids that if they think can win something easily then they need to challenge themselves to win at greater odds. What's the point if it isn't a challenge?

**********************************************
What's most important is that you realise ... There is no spoon.

RE: Librarian wants to ban 5-time reading champ from contest

The whole point of such competitions, or team and individual sports, is to teach the lesson that hard work, dedication and perseverance are commendable traits that are awarded. Awarded not only in the context of the sport or competition, but in life as a whole.

The now pervasive "everyone's a winner" or "you get a ribbon just for showing up" mentality teaches instead that that there is no reason to work hard or try your best because every slacker gets the same reward.

That's socialism.

The librarian should be fired.

RE: Librarian wants to ban 5-time reading champ from contest


What we have is a trend toward equality of outcome versus equality of opportunity.

Skip,

glassesJust traded in my old subtlety...
for a NUANCE!tongue

RE: Librarian wants to ban 5-time reading champ from contest

Quote (mintjulep)

The whole point of such competitions, or team and individual sports, is to teach the lesson that hard work, dedication and perseverance are commendable traits that are awarded.

I strongly disagree with this. Too many reasons to list. I know this will be unpopular but I really believe that winning is NOT the whole point.

**********************************************
What's most important is that you realise ... There is no spoon.

RE: Librarian wants to ban 5-time reading champ from contest


Quote (kwbMitel)


Quote (MintJulep)

The whole point of such competitions, or team and individual sports, is to teach the lesson that hard work, dedication and perseverance are commendable traits that are awarded.

I strongly disagree with this. Too many reasons to list. I know this will be unpopular but I really believe that winning is NOT the whole point.

Please highlight where the word "winning" appears in my statement.

Winning shouldn't be the whole point, but it damm better be the GOAL.

RE: Librarian wants to ban 5-time reading champ from contest

==> I agree that it can be perceived this way but there are actions that the Adults can take to ensure that all parties come out ahead.
It can be perceived that way because it is that way.

The fact that adults have to take some actions to ensure that all parties come out ahead is telling. In other words, it's not a matter of rewarding those who have earned those rewards; it's a matter of "adults" artificially manipulating the situation so that everyone gets rewards. It teaches that participating entitles one to a reward.

What it is not teaching is that rewards are the results of your own labors. It teaches that what you get out of a situation is NOT a function of what you put into the situation. It teaches that no matter how much or how little you do, the outcome is determined by some outside force (in kwbMitel's case an adult) deciding what outcome allows everyone to come out ahead. That is precisely the entitlement mentality - that whoever is in charge owes you and everyone else a favorable outcome.

==> It's the journey that matters.
By your own example, it's NOT the journey that matters. How can the journey matter when regardless of what journey you take, or don't take, the outcome is ensured that all parties come out ahead?

There is nothing wrong with handicapping, but keep in mind that handicapping first acknowledges the differing skill sets of the players, ALL the players are handicapped based on the same criteria, and all the players know it's a handicapped competition. The competition is no longer about who has the greatest skill; it's about who can best overcome their handicap.

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RE: Librarian wants to ban 5-time reading champ from contest

==> that winning is NOT the whole point.
I don't believe anyone said that winning is the whole point.

My point is not about winning, it's about being properly rewarded for your actions. The whole notion of entitlement mentality is that whoever or whatever is in charge owes you a positive outcome. That's crap. If you want a positive outcome, then it's your responsibility to put in the effort to make the outcome positive. That doesn't mean you win, necessarily; it means you get what you deserve, not what someone else thinks is a fair outcome for everyone.

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RE: Librarian wants to ban 5-time reading champ from contest

Welcome to the new world order. When someone who does not want to work gets the same handout that someone who wants to work but cannot, we have a problem.

djj
The Lord is my shepherd (Psalm 23) - I need someone to lead me!

RE: Librarian wants to ban 5-time reading champ from contest

Here is the message I am hearing from most of you.

Somehow, if the person who is best at something does not get his due then everyone else is a slackard.

I call BS.

I believe this situation could have been handled much better but to impune the efforts, integrity, work ethics, and dedication of the other participants and label them as you have is just as bad.

**********************************************
What's most important is that you realise ... There is no spoon.

RE: Librarian wants to ban 5-time reading champ from contest

It has nothing at all to do with the participants' efforts, integrity, work ethics.

It has to do with the official running the show and the implcations of regulating the competition as stated.

The ultimate results might very well affect the morale of ALL the participants, including the reading champion, if they conclude that reading is not the challenge that it could be in a free competition.

Skip,

glassesJust traded in my old subtlety...
for a NUANCE!tongue

RE: Librarian wants to ban 5-time reading champ from contest

Quote (kwbMitel)

Here is the message I am hearing from most of you.

Somehow, if the person who is best at something does not get his due then everyone else is a slackard.

Then you're not hearing correctly.

When the loser gets the same due as the winner it is the loser who loses out.

There are relatively no teaching opportunities in winning. "You did great, congratulations. Let's go get a pizza."

There are teaching opportunities associated with losing.

"The other team beat your team because they executed plays as a group where as your team acts like a bunch of individuals."

"Jimmy beat you because he stays for extra practice when you decide to go home and play XBox."

"Even though you're bigger and strong than Billy he pinned you because he learned the double-bazzoka whammo hold."

Taking away these teaching opportunities makes us as a society weaker.

Taking away the sting of losing fosters the "who cares" attitude, and dampens what should be a basic human drive to find what you are good at and excel at it.

RE: Librarian wants to ban 5-time reading champ from contest

==> to impune the efforts, integrity, work ethics, and dedication of the other participants and label them as you have is just as bad.
To which post(s) are you referring to? Who has been so critical of and has so labeled the other participants?

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RE: Librarian wants to ban 5-time reading champ from contest

==> to impune the efforts, integrity, work ethics, and dedication of the other participants and label them as you have is just as bad.
To which post(s) are you referring to? Who has been so critical of and has so labeled the other participants?

If you don't see how the arguments regarding entitlement and winners and losers is labeling the other participants and finding them wanting then no arguments on my side will convince you otherwise.

BTW, you've also totally misunderstood my point. I was never advocating that everyone should win or everyone should have an equal chance. Go back to my first post for context 3 Sep 13 22:40. There are ways that this issue could have been handled whereby everyone could walk away happy. I was never referring to the other participants only the parties that are now unhappy. I think the Librarian was wrong in how she handled it. I think the Parent was wrong both before and after and unfortunately, the kid is stuck in the middle.

Winning does not need to be the goal. Doing your best is a better goal and let the chips fall where they may.

Anyone who tries their best, and does not win, is much better off than the winners who get by without even trying.

**********************************************
What's most important is that you realise ... There is no spoon.

RE: Librarian wants to ban 5-time reading champ from contest

Using the same logic as the librarian, the New York Yankees would have been excluded from the World Series somewhere around 1939, since they kept winning and the other teams couldn't keep up. And next, I suppose somebody is going to tell me that scoreless soccer and baseball are not fantastic ideas. As somebody already said, the change in emphasis has been from equal opportunity to equal outcomes, and this is simply wrong and destructive. The kids who give up trying to read the most books because "they can't keep up" and "Tyler always wins" will be tomorrow's 99 Per Centers. Thank goodness the torch has been passed!

RE: Librarian wants to ban 5-time reading champ from contest


Quote (kwbMitel )

Winning does not need to be the goal.

The librarian set the rules and offered rewards for the best performer thus making it a contest thus expecting a winner.

Quote:

Doing your best is a better goal and let the chips fall where they may.
Well that's exactly what the young boy did but the chips ain't falling in his direction.

Just saying, not criticizing, but I really don't understand your logic.

Sam

RE: Librarian wants to ban 5-time reading champ from contest

@mscallisto, My first response was the one I intended to be heard but no one paid any attention to it.

Were I in the Librarians position I would have proposed the the award be named after the child and had him be the presenter of same. This acknowledges his accomplishments, gives him pride of lasting fame, allows him to participate at a higher level and allows others to have a better chance to succeed.

My objections have been towards all those saying that giving the kid the award is the only solution and that by not doing so it somehow lessens the accomplishments of others. If I understand correctly, and I believe I do, these types of programs are not competitions per-se. They are developed to encourage kids to read that would not do so otherwise. The purpose of the program is defeated when the target audience believes they have little or no chance to succeed. The fact that previous years programs had led to cheating should have been a serious red flag to the organisers and the program should have been revamped or folded altogether. By not doing so, the program fed the attitudes that are prevalent here that winning in this kind of program is somehow important. Getting a kid to read a book where they would not have done so otherwise should be the single measure of success in a program such as this. By losing sight of this, everyone involved failed. The only person I don't blame is the kid. I wish him luck and hope he comes across someone who can teach him the value of doing your best for that sake alone rather than the glory, awards or any of the other misguided goals.

**********************************************
What's most important is that you realise ... There is no spoon.

RE: Librarian wants to ban 5-time reading champ from contest

@Everyone

For the record, I do have an inside track on some of these things. My wife happens to have her Masters in Library and information services and she is the Manager of childrens services for the Main Branch in the city where I live. She has been a Professional Librarian for over 20 years and has taught young adult fiction discussion courses at the graduate level of University. She is currently responsible for developing, marketing, and evaluating programs such as these and I consider her to be one of the smartest people I know. You can't live this close to this stuff without some of it rubbing off.

If you like, I can ask her opinion directly if you are still having issues with mine.

**********************************************
What's most important is that you realise ... There is no spoon.

RE: Librarian wants to ban 5-time reading champ from contest

K -

My issue is not with you or your desire for more people to come out ahead. My problem is with how the librarian is handling this situation. I think the core of the problem lies in the structure of the "contest". It is set up so that there is a single "winner". Having done so, she is then saying "well, Tyler 'hogs' this" - thus throwing negative labels at the kid who excels. Rather than admitting there is a basic problem with how she has set up the program, she then goes on to penalize him by trying to exclude him because he is the best at what he does. If you study early Soviet history, you will see where this kind of thinking leads when taken to the extreme.

If you want to have more people "win", don't set it up so you have only one "winner" - set achievement levels so that people who read a given number of books are recognized. If reading 20 books puts you at the silver level and 30 gets the gold level, then more than one person can achieve recognition and those at the lower levels can improve if they so desire. But if you set it up as a competition with the person reading the most books "winning", you cannot claim to be concerned about fairness if you exclude the people who would naturally win.

Eventually, Tyler will leave the school and leave behind a legacy of winning every year. Some students will accept the challenge to equal that record and/or read even more books than he did. Others will not. I think that is the difference between those that get ahead and the rest of the pack.

RE: Librarian wants to ban 5-time reading champ from contest


So how can we encourage achievement and at the same time recognize over achievement?

Madam librarian (I wonder if her name was Marion, the librarian) created the single winner conundrum. Could she not also create a solution to encourage these behaviors, like to create another award that would recognize multiple year winners separately and with the appropriate emphasis?

How she reacted and her characterization of Tyler's accomplishments, was HOGwash!

Skip,

glassesJust traded in my old subtlety...
for a NUANCE!tongue

RE: Librarian wants to ban 5-time reading champ from contest

==> If you don't see how the arguments regarding entitlement and winners and losers is labeling the other participants and finding them wanting then no arguments on my side will convince you otherwise.
No, it's not labeling the other participants in any way shape, fashion, or form. Not in any way. It's not labeling any one. It's labeling the competition as flawed. It's says nothing about the competitors; it says everything about the competition. If you set up a competition to award a winner, and then deny th winner their rewards, then you have made a mockery of the competition and done a disservice to the winner. You're sending the message that it does NOT pay to do your best. That's what everyone is saying. You seem to think they're saying something else.

Quote:

Somehow, if the person who is best at something does not get his due then everyone else is a slackard.
That's complete BS and a logical non-sequitor.
There is not a single post which denigrates the efforts of ANY of the competitors, strong or weak. Not one post labels anyone who doesn't win a slacker, nor does any post imply that one who competes and doesn't win is a slacker. For you to claim that people in this forum have done so is uncalled for and has no place in this forum. I ask that you either retract that statement, or provide solid supporting evidence that may be discussed in the event that you have misunderstood what someone has said, or as mintjulep has said, "Then you're not hearing correctly."

--------------
Good Luck
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RE: Librarian wants to ban 5-time reading champ from contest

2
Since when was reading a competitive activity?

Comparisons with sports teams and stars are inappropriate as the aims of sporting competitions are different. The idea of a race is to find the fastest runner, it would clearly be ridiculous to ban Usain Bolt from Athletics for winning too often.

But the purpose of the reading programme is to encourage children to read. Imagine you're a not-especially-enthusiastic reader in Tyler's peer group. You're not going to be inspired to take part, because you know Tyler's going to win regardless. Why not spend the summer playing computer games instead?

So the librarian lady's heart is in the right place - but I think she's fixing the wrong problem. By making the programme into a competition to find the most voracious reader in the class (which is something everyone has already known for years), it dis-incentivises the very children that they're trying to reach: kids who haven't got the reading bug yet.

So rather than banning this child from the competition, I think they need to restructure it entirely. Tackle it the we would tackle an IT problem: determine the specific things they're trying to do, and then build a programme that will achieve those aims. If it includes prizes for those individuals who are "best" at some element of the reading process, that's not necessarily wrong - because one of the project aims might be to give nerdy kids who lack sporting ability something they can win. But I think there should be a strong element of challenging-but-achievable goals that will encourage everyone to take part. Maybe you get a prize for every x books you read. I don't know.

I'm not going to suggest how the programme should be structured, because it's outside my area of expertise. No doubt there are plenty of existing examples of best practice out there that they could copy.

But part of me still weeps to see reading turned into any kind of competition, however benign. Surely there are enough competitive pressures we put on our children (and ourselves, for that matter) without having to add reading to the list? Couldn't reading be left as a simple pleasure to be enjoyed in the way you see fit? If you want to tear through piles of books at breakneck speed, great. If you'd rather read slowly, savouring every word, that's great too. The point is to open the door to the wonderful world that can be found inside the pages of books, so they'll want to read even when there are no prizes to be had. Because ultimately reading is its own reward.

-- Chris Hunt
Webmaster & Tragedian
Extra Connections Ltd

RE: Librarian wants to ban 5-time reading champ from contest

@CajunCenturion - feel free to censure. As I said earlier, if you can't see the labels, nothing I can say will change your mind.

Please read ChrisHunts recent post. There are no labels and he gets it.

**********************************************
What's most important is that you realise ... There is no spoon.

RE: Librarian wants to ban 5-time reading champ from contest

I think Chris has struck upon the dilemma - how do you provide an incentive for people to read more without turning it into some kind of contest? Do you pay kids for every book read? Even then, there will probably be a de facto contest going on to see who can get the most money. Adults may think they're on to something with ideas like scoreless soccer (if there's no score, there can be no winners or losers, right?). But every player on the field and parent on the sidelines knows what the score is - don't kid yourself.

Aside from some kind of reward, I cannot think of a way to incent kids to read if they are not already inclined to do so on their own. I think kids will either discover the joy of reading or they won't, and those who don't will be that much poorer for it. But I'm pretty sure that offering a reward to the most prolific reader and then excluding the most prolific reader from the contest is sending some pretty bad messages.

RE: Librarian wants to ban 5-time reading champ from contest

This article I ran across today speaks more vividly to the arguments regarding competition, and the everybody wins attitude. Personally, I am astonished at how far it has come. For the record, I think this is shameful.
http://www.cbc.ca/thisisthat/mobile/touch/blog/201...

**********************************************
What's most important is that you realise ... There is no spoon.

RE: Librarian wants to ban 5-time reading champ from contest

I guess the librarian's name could have been Diana Moon Glampers. see here

RE: Librarian wants to ban 5-time reading champ from contest

OMFG! That's pathetic.

When I was young we used our imaginations too. Mostly we imagined being winners. "Bottom of the 9th, 2 outs, 2 strikes --- he smashes a homer into the upper deck!"

Or if we were playing short handed football (the real American type of football, not sissy soccer) we "imagined" offensive line men by imposing a "no rushing the QB before a count of 3 Mississippi" rule. So we used our imaginations while still actually trying to win the game.

And when we played war (yes, we played war back then, or cops and robbers, or cowboys and hostile indigenous people..) we imagined bullets and had an honor system about "yep, you killed me".

We imagined ways to make or bikes and skateboards go faster, or jump farther. Then we modified our bikes, or build bigger, longer, taller ramps to jump things. Amazing, we actually made physically real things based on our imaginations. Then we went faster, or jumped farther. We established records. We won.

Sometimes we smashed our fingers with hammers. Sometimes we scraped our knees. Sometimes we broke our arms or our legs. And when we did so we learned something. We learned that a really long ramp needs support in the middle. We learned that crashing on grass hurts less than crashing on gravel. We learned that you should wear jeans when trying for the jumping record. We learned that go-carts really need engines and brakes.

Imagine --> Create --> Try ---> Fail ---> Learn --> Achieve

Doing only the first is the same as doing nothing.

RE: Librarian wants to ban 5-time reading champ from contest

Now THAT made me laugh out loud!!!! What perfect timing for this thread too! But, let's everybody calm down...




...its a hoax. A DAMN good one it would seem, judging by how many media outlets in North America believed it!!!!

http://www.sportsgrid.com/soccer/entire-nation-of-...

RE: Librarian wants to ban 5-time reading champ from contest

Oh thankyou Guitarzan, hoax I can understand, I was embarrassed for my country.

It was CBC and I verified thru a second source. (I fell for the boy in the balloon story too, gullible I guess)

**********************************************
What's most important is that you realise ... There is no spoon.

RE: Librarian wants to ban 5-time reading champ from contest

This Is That is a satirical radio show that runs on CBC radio. Everything on that site is satire.

Hope this helps.

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RE: Librarian wants to ban 5-time reading champ from contest

Thanks guys and gals
I am holding my belly as I have not had a laugh since last week. I read the first line about removing the ball from competition to my wife and she meant that everybody has gone nuts until I told her that it was a hoax and a lot of networks fell for it. Now her belly hurts too from laughing.

As for the reading competitions, my kids don't like to read and their readathon in school that they have once a year is pretty much the only time I can get them to pick up a book. Needless to say they never win but they read. This is the best proof for me that you do not need to win to enjoy something.


@ mintjulep
your post reminds me of a 2 minute youtube video that my mother in law sent me last week (last time my belly hurt from laughing)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GWRdHXbTmrs&sns...

Joe W.

FHandw, ACSS (SME), ACIS (SME)

http://convergednetworks.ca


“Quality is never an accident; it is always the result of high intention, sincere effort, intelligent direction and skillful execution; it represents the wise choice of many alternatives.”

RE: Librarian wants to ban 5-time reading champ from contest

er, um, impugn anyone?

Regards

T

RE: Librarian wants to ban 5-time reading champ from contest

One other consideration, usually these contests are the start of a bigger contest. Regional to State to National. If this was part of a national contest then shame on the adults that let it happen. If it was just a school contest then naming the contest after the prior winner is cool. But I still have an issue with denying any child an opportunity to compete.

Jim C.

RE: Librarian wants to ban 5-time reading champ from contest

I'm joining this discussion later (been far too busy with that 4 letter word thing (you know the one..... w&rk)...

My first thought for this is that I don't know how you can measure a reading champ? Reading isn't a competitive activity.

Fee

"The cure for anything is salt water – sweat, tears, or the sea." Isak Dinesen

RE: Librarian wants to ban 5-time reading champ from contest

Quote:

Reading isn't a competitive activity.
I see a lot of librarians do this. Until kids realize that reading is fun, the more you read the easier it is, and that reading (and learning) is it's own reward, some kids won't read unless there is a tangible reward. (Especially in the summer.)

James P. Cottingham
I'm number 1,229!
I'm number 1,229!

RE: Librarian wants to ban 5-time reading champ from contest

I love librarians that take steps to encourage reading, including rewards, and a contest ending with a reading "winner" may not be the worst idea ever, but it is also flawed in my opinion. I'm with Welshbird and ChrisHunt. Reading is not a sport. It is not a competition.

To improve your standing in a sport, you can isolate certain things that can give you an edge. Basketball players can shoot countless free throws to build up muscle memory. Swimmers can learn to increase the efficiency of their strokes. How are you going to improve yourself for next year's reading contest? Read fast and skim chapters? Only choose the shortest books available?

Yes, this librarian came up with a lame way to tweak the contest, but when the criteria for winning is solely based on volume of books read, the contest is flawed.

RE: Librarian wants to ban 5-time reading champ from contest

@ Guitarzan, Welshbird, and Chrishunt.

Thank you for getting across what I was obviously failing to communicate. From my perspective I said the same things but somehow it didn't take.

**********************************************
What's most important is that you realise ... There is no spoon.

RE: Librarian wants to ban 5-time reading champ from contest

==> I was obviously failing to communicate. From my perspective I said the same things but somehow it didn't take.
I don't think anybody misunderstood your intentions in that regard.

My issue was you accusing other people saying, meaning, and implying things they didn't say, mean, or imply. Then, of course, you unwillingness to stand behind your words.

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RE: Librarian wants to ban 5-time reading champ from contest

CajunCenturion, I don't want to get this started again but you are accusing me of things that don't apply and never did and then asking me to defend myself. This appears unfair to me but rather than continue what seemed a pointless debate, I chose to let it drop. If you wish to interpret this as not standing behind my words, fine, I can live with that too. As far as my intentions were concerned, at no time did anyone seem to acknowledge them so I had no basis to believe anyone understood them which contributed to further confusion in my opinion.

Again, I really don't want to go there. I thought I was being forced to discuss things that were beside the point and I treated them as such.

Now that the point has been accepted on what I was trying to say all along, I can step aside and give credit where it is due.

I appreciate your acknowlegement of my intentions and I will offer my retraction of any statements that did not align with my original intent.

Fair enough?

**********************************************
What's most important is that you realise ... There is no spoon.

RE: Librarian wants to ban 5-time reading champ from contest

==> you are accusing me of things that don't apply and never did and then asking me to defend myself.
Excuse me? Let me remind you then.

From your post of 4 Sep 13 16:08

Quote (kwbMitel)

to impune the efforts, integrity, work ethics, and dedication of the other participants and label them as you have is just as bad.
How can you with a straight face that you're being accused of something doesn't apply and never did when those are your exact words?

And yes, absolutely, I asked you to substantiate that accusation in my post of 4 Sep 13 17:07.

Quote (CC)

To which post(s) are you referring to? Who has been so critical of and has so labeled the other participants?
and your response

Quote (kwbMite)

If you don't see how the arguments regarding entitlement and winners and losers is labeling the other participants and finding them wanting then no arguments on my side will convince you otherwise.
In other words, you add insult to injury with that response. That's your justification for not defending the accusations you made?

And that appears unfair to you? It's unfair for someone to ask you how and why you came to make such accusations.

You said,

Quote (kwbMitel)

Somehow, if the person who is best at something does not get his due then everyone else is a slackard.
You think it's unfair for someone to ask what facts you used to arrive at that conclusion?

==> I will offer my retraction of any statements that did not align with my original intent.
Please be specific. What statements are you retracting?

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RE: Librarian wants to ban 5-time reading champ from contest

Nope: CajunCenturion, Like I said twice, I do not want to start again. I take your answer to mean that you do not accept. I can live with that.

**********************************************
What's most important is that you realise ... There is no spoon.

RE: Librarian wants to ban 5-time reading champ from contest

I have to agree with CC.

Skip,

glassesJust traded in my old subtlety...
for a NUANCE!tongue

RE: Librarian wants to ban 5-time reading champ from contest

Our library makes the reading program a self-guided competition. The child and the parent(s) together with the program director decide how many books the child will read in a given period of time. If the child succeeds, they get a small prize such as a free pizza. The program starts at age five and continues until 15. Each year, the child must increase their number of books to read over the prior year. It has been in place for 10 years and the first group is in their last year.

No one competes against anyone except themselves. Business sponsorship of this has been good and provides the prizes. It also does not award prizes if the child does not meet their goal... not even a participation ribbon :).

Tom

RE: Librarian wants to ban 5-time reading champ from contest

May I call an end to the sniping and arguing that has been going on. Take it offline if you want. This is no place for the bickering. Please act like adults and not children.

Thank you,
Tom

RE: Librarian wants to ban 5-time reading champ from contest

If you are to have a competition, then, by definition, there will be one winner, and all the rest are losers. The way it's supposed to work is that the winner's success should inspire everybody else to do better.

When "equality of result" becomes the norm, mediocrity results. This benefits no one.

-- Francis
Francisus ego, sed non sum papa.

RE: Librarian wants to ban 5-time reading champ from contest

Ok, I'm going to try a different tack on this. Please forgive me if I ask questions to ensure that we are all speaking about the same thing.

@flapeyre regarding your latest post.

If you are to have a competition, then, by definition, there will be one winner, and all the rest are losers.
  • Are you talking about the case at hand with the reading competition?
  • Do you really believe that all that do not win are by definition losers?
  • Do you really believe that all competitions can only have one winner?
the winner's success should inspire everybody else to do better.
  • Do you think there might be other measurements of success that might apply to non-winners?
  • Do you think that everyone is capable of doing better?
When "equality of result" becomes the norm, mediocrity results. This benefits no one.
  • Do you think this statement applies to the specifics of this case
  • Do you believe that mediocrity resulted in this case
  • Do you believe no one benefited from reading if they did not win.
What I believe:
  • That competition allows you to measure your abilities against others, nothing more.
  • That all participants in this specific competition benefited from it
  • That I would be satisfied in any competition where I know I have tried my best regardless of the result.(Yes, even last place)
  • That this specific event failed in it's composition as events such as these should encourage participation.
  • That I have never considered myself a loser in any competition I have entered, where I did not win, as long as I gave it my all.
  • That all competitions yield benefits regardless of outcome. Nothing ventured nothing gained.
  • That the "equality of result" mentality is real and is wrong but is simply a reaction to it's polar opposite mindset (also wrong IMHO)
I apoligize in advance for any spelling/gramatical/formatting errors as I'm writing this on my phone

Also, in deference to earlier work, I am not making any judgements or assumptions, only seeking clarification.





















**********************************************
What's most important is that you realise ... There is no spoon.

RE: Librarian wants to ban 5-time reading champ from contest

I was generalizing. What I think is that in this case, it wasn't the competition per se, but the misguided attempt by the administrator to inject "equality" into things.

-- Francis
Francisus ego, sed non sum papa.

RE: Librarian wants to ban 5-time reading champ from contest

I think generalizations such as this may have contributed to my earlier reactions that were deemed inappropriate. I think the difference maker this time was in being more clear in what I thought instead of reacting as I did earlier. I'm glad we were able to clear that up. We were all in agreement that something was wrong in the Originally posted material. We differed in what we thought was wrong. I've spent too much time working with kids that are crushed by the winner take all mentality to buy in but I dislike the Equality of result mentality just as much. There is good to be found in every effort, every competitor, and success can be measured in numerous ways. For myself, I am not inspired by the Michael Phelps of this world, I am inspired by those such as Zach Anner
Zach Anner's Work out Wednesday

**********************************************
What's most important is that you realise ... There is no spoon.

RE: Librarian wants to ban 5-time reading champ from contest

@Karluk, I'm not a fan of either point of view.

Things like this High School Basketball game get to me though.

Hard to argue about who wins and who loses in this game.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=smKPA8qWR6A

**********************************************
What's most important is that you realise ... There is no spoon.

RE: Librarian wants to ban 5-time reading champ from contest

==> I am not inspired by the Michael Phelps of this world, I am inspired by those such as Zach Anner
I too am inspired by Zach Anner, as I hope everyone would be, but comparing Phelps to Anner is an apples to oranges comparison. Phelps competes against other competitors; he swins to win. It's a competition. Anner on the other hand, is not competing against anyone; he's trying to better himself. Some may claim that he's competing against himself, but that's not really true. He's trying to better himself. He's trying to do it better today than he did yesterday. That's not a real competition.

If you don't want a winner; if you don't want to identify who is best, then don't hold a competition. Competition is all about determining who is best; competition IS about winning.

Instead, have a reading fair, or a reading festival, or what have you, where prizes are awarded for achieving milestones. Everyone who achieves a given milestone gets that prize. You earn the milestone, you earn the prize.

Just don't call it a competition unless it IS a competition.

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RE: Librarian wants to ban 5-time reading champ from contest

@ CajunCenturion

Sorry Again with questions:

Competition is all about determining who is best
  • Do you truely believe there are no other determining factors?
competition IS about winning
  • Do you truely believe winning is all that competition is about
Have you yourself ever entered a competition knowing that you could not win? If so, why?

Please see my list posted 16 Sep 13 19:40 for what I believe.


We agree that this book event was structured incorrectly. I suspect, but cannot prove, that the intent was not to be a competition but that it got away from the organisers. By the time they tried looking for a solution it was already too late. You'll find, if you check, that I have tried very hard not to refer to it as a competition. I acknowledge that not refering to it as such does not change the facts.

**********************************************
What's most important is that you realise ... There is no spoon.

RE: Librarian wants to ban 5-time reading champ from contest

==> Do you truely believe there are no other determining factors?
Yes, competition is about determining who can perform best. Winning is not an exclusive outcome of competition, but winning is the objective of competition.

==> Do you truely believe winning is all that competition is about
Yes. Winning is the objective of a competition. That's the very definition of competition. That doesn't mean there are benefits to be had from not winning, but that doesn't change the fact that competition is about winning.

==> Have you yourself ever entered a competition knowing that you could not win? If so, why?
I've entered competitions knowing full well that my chances of winning were very small, but I still entered with full intention of winning. I still played to win. For example, you don't become a good chess playing by playing people you beat all the time. No, you get better by getting you butt whipped and learning from the experience. Losing to superior players allows you to get better. You need the challenge and experience of losing to better players in order to get better.

==> That competition allows you to measure your abilities against others, nothing more.
Not nothing more. Yes, measuring and comparing is all about seeing where you fit on the scale with respect to the other competitors. But it's not nothing more because those measurements mean something. They show you what and where are your opportunities to improve. They show you where you need to get better. If it's nothing more, then why do you care where you sit with respect to other competitors? If you truly don't care about winning or being the best, then why do you care where you measure up against the others?

==> That all participants in this specific competition benefited from it
Of course. But benefiting is not the same as winning. And there are benefits from losing, not the least of which is learning how to lose. See mintjulep's outstanding post of 4 Sep 13 16:55.

==> That I would be satisfied in any competition where I know I have tried my best regardless of the result.(Yes, even last place)
That's fine for you, but if that's your approach, I submit that you're not competing, you're simply participating. Yes I've competed and I've done my best, and I have come in last place in competitions, I didn't have any regrets about my efforts, but I was definitely not satisfied with it. I knew that I had some work to do so that I wouldn't come in last place next time. I took it as an opportunity to get better.

==> That this specific event failed in it's composition as events such as these should encourage participation.
This event failed precisely because it was composed as a competition. Competitions aren't supposed to encourage participation; they encourage winning. And that's precisely the reason behind entitlement comment. When competitions are artificially manipulated to control who can and cannot compete, or whose results are manipulated to ensure everyone wins, then you're enabling entitlement mentality. You're teaching that participation in competition entitles you to rewards, not that being the best in a competition results in rewards. And that's a dis-service because life if full of real competitions, where there are winners and losers, and I think it's important that we teach the kids the difference between fun events and competitions. Again, it the framing of a competition as a vehicle for participation rewards that is the problem. There are plenty of opportunities to have events that encourage and reward participation, but competition isn't one of them.

==> That I have never considered myself a loser in any competition I have entered, where I did not win, as long as I gave it my all.
Losing a competition doesn't make you a loser; it means that you lost that competition. And that is an important lesson to teach. Just as doing something stupid doesn't make you stupid, losing a competition doesn't make you a loser. But that doesn't change the fact that did do something stupid and you did lose that competition.

==> That all competitions yield benefits regardless of outcome. Nothing ventured nothing gained.
Agreed, as discussed earlier.

==> That the "equality of result" mentality is real and is wrong but is simply a reaction to it's polar opposite mindset (also wrong IMHO)
Equality of result is wrong. However, the only reason that equality of result mentality exists is because competitions have been abused and manipulated to foster that mentality.

Competition is the wrong vehicle to teach equality of result. That doesn't mean teaching equality of result is necessarily bad; it means that using competition to each equality of result is bad. Competition is not about equality of result. Competition is about winning.

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RE: Librarian wants to ban 5-time reading champ from contest

@CajunCenturion, although I would love to debate the merits of your assertions because I believe they are flawed, I simply do not have the time.

Nor do I think the outcome would be favourable for me. Not because I believe my points are invalid or less worthy but more because I do not believe my skill at debate is as good as yours. If I had the time and energy, I might try to make the effort simply as an exercise for improvement. Again failure or not, would not necessarily reflect on the merits, but on my skill to present them.

If that sounds a lot like how I feel about compitition, you can be assured it was intentional.

**********************************************
What's most important is that you realise ... There is no spoon.

RE: Librarian wants to ban 5-time reading champ from contest

kwbMitel,

You seem to object strongly to the use of the word "loser" to describe people who do not win. While this word can have strong negative connotations (more of "failure in life"), it can also be used simply as the opposite of "winner".

When one person wins a competition, they are the winner. When another person loses the same competition, they are the loser. This does not mean that they are a loser in life, just in that competition. I mean this with no negative implications. I mean it only as "person who lost".

For instance, I recently competed in an athletic competition. Out of 3 matches, I won one and lost two. I did not finish in the top 3 in my bracket, and only those people won awards. In terms of 2 of my matches and the tournament in general, I was a loser. In terms of one of my matches, I was a winner. In terms of my self-esteem, I felt great for competing and doing as well as I did (which was no small feat for somebody my age with my severely limited athletic prowess).

I don't know if this outlook will make you feel any better about the use of the word, but I'm hoping you might better understand some other people's intentions.

RE: Librarian wants to ban 5-time reading champ from contest

(OP)

Quote (KWB)

Nor do I think the outcome would be favourable for me. Not because I believe my points are invalid or less worthy but more because I do not believe my skill at debate is as good as yours.

KWB, please don't confuse this thread with a competition where, by definition, there is only one "winner". This is a thread in a forum where the readers and writers benefit from the free exchange of ideas.

santaMufasa
(aka Dave of Sandy, Utah, USA)
“People may forget what you say, but they will never forget how you made them feel."

RE: Librarian wants to ban 5-time reading champ from contest

@KornGeek - I appreciate your efforts at clarification and yes I am sensitive to the word loser. Because it can have negative connotations, I choose not to use it and instead choose what I believe to be more concise terms such as competitor. Competitor does not have any negative connotations that I am aware of. I do not require this of others and I accept that others do not believe it is meaningful to do so. My main issue in this thread has not simply been the use of the word loser but how this instance has been bundled up into what is obviously a sore point for many in the Equality Movement in sports. This instance is not a sporting event and as Welshbird and Guitarzan have also pointed out, reading is difficult to measure in the way of a competition. My standpoint all along has been that the flaw in this scenario is that the event was treated as a competition at all.

I do not believe in the Equality Movement but I also don't believe competition's sole purpose is to determine a winner. To paraphrase Dr. Suess, “Maybe Compitition…perhaps…means a little bit more!”

@SantaMufasa, as in all things that might be difficult, I need to choose whether or not the battle is worth waging. It is becoming apparent to me that I am fighting a losing battle and although I am not adverse to doing so, the benefits that might be gained from such do not add up for me.

**********************************************
What's most important is that you realise ... There is no spoon.

RE: Librarian wants to ban 5-time reading champ from contest

Humor time!
Jerry Seinfeld on the Olympics

The dilution of competition with the goal of furthering self-esteem is risible. Detestable.

I've been part of some epic beat-downs:
We lost a college basketball game 118-25. Let that sink in for a minute.
We lost a city softball game 40-8.

What the heck do you learn from getting whacked like that? You learn to lose graciously. You learn that you need to work harder and get better, no matter how many times you get hammered. I was also on some intramural teams in the service that went undefeated through consecutive softball, football, and basketball seasons. At the other end of the spectrum, you learn to win graciously, but keep working at your skills. Complacency is a killer. If there's no incentive; if everyone gets the same "prize" at the end, what's the point of trying?

-----------
With business clients like mine, you'd be better off herding cats.

RE: Librarian wants to ban 5-time reading champ from contest

Update: http://poststar.com/news/local/hudson-falls-librar...

So, not only did the school board fire the librarian who created the controversy... they also fired the librarian who defended the kid who kept winning the contest!!

RE: Librarian wants to ban 5-time reading champ from contest

That's unfortunate sadeyes. I don't think anyone should lose their job over something like this. Goes to prove somewhat that not all publicity is good publicity I guess.

**********************************************
What's most important is that you realise ... There is no spoon.

RE: Librarian wants to ban 5-time reading champ from contest

That is just wrong. A horrible case of heavy handed overreaction.


RE: Librarian wants to ban 5-time reading champ from contest

The hog-marm ought to be reprimanded, but not fired

Skip,

glassesJust traded in my old subtlety...
for a NUANCE!tongue

RE: Librarian wants to ban 5-time reading champ from contest

They threw the baby out with the bath water. The board of directors were gutless & selfserving.

Jim C.

RE: Librarian wants to ban 5-time reading champ from contest

I agree that this incident alone doesn't justify termination, but none of us know (unless you were in the board meeting) if the board's decision was based on just this incident or whether this was the last straw, nor what other factors may have been in play.

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RE: Librarian wants to ban 5-time reading champ from contest

This is now just silly

the so call competition appears to have been a harmless exercise in encouraging children to read and the request to step aside has been blown out of proportion.

sacking the staff is totally inappropriate.

A Maintenance contract is essential, not a Luxury.
Do things on the cheap & it will cost you dear

RE: Librarian wants to ban 5-time reading champ from contest

I'm with CC. We don't know the whole story. Maybe they have a policy against speaking to the press. Maybe she was chronically late to work. Maybe one million other possibilities were in play.

It looks like she was fired so they could simply put this whole incident behind them and move on. I'm not even completely convinced that would be a bad reason (although it does feel like an overreaction). I prefer not to judge when I only have a small fraction of the information.

RE: Librarian wants to ban 5-time reading champ from contest

Information we do know:
- 41 years service for Librarian
- 28 Years service for Aide
- Aide believes action is related
- Aide states that she has worked there for 28 years without complaint
- Librarian "A New York librarian was fired from her job after standing up for a child who liked to read." Quote: NY Times
- Librarian "beloved presence at the upstate New York reading hole" Quote: NY Times

We may not know the whole story, but what we do know seems to be sufficient for speculation on causality

**********************************************
What's most important is that you realise ... There is no spoon.

RE: Librarian wants to ban 5-time reading champ from contest

==> but what we do know seems to be sufficient for speculation on causality
You can speculate on anything.

==> Aide believes action is related
Just because the aide believes it's related, doesn't mean that it is. What we know is that board is unwilling to share with her the reasons, nor do we know why they wouldn't share.

==> Aide states that she has worked there for 28 years without complaint
There may or may not have been complaints. What we know is that the aide is not aware of any complaints.

According to the article

Quote:

Before speaking with Gandron [the librarian], Casey [the aide] talked to Herman, the board president, who told her he did not have an issue with the change.
That implies that the aide went over the librarian's head, by talking to the board president before speaking with the librarian. We know that Casey told the press that the change was ridiculous, despite it being supported by her boss and that her boss's boss didn't have an issue with the change.

We also know that the board was is looking for an interim director. What we don't know if any prospective directors placed conditions on accepting the position, such as, only if he or she could replace the staff with their own people.

Maybe there are budget issues in play. And there could be many other issues and factors in play.

Bottom line is that we don't know all the facts, and what we do know is not probitive.

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RE: Librarian wants to ban 5-time reading champ from contest

(OP)

Quote (CC)

Bottom line is that we don't know all the facts, and what we do know is not probitive.

As usual, I agree with CC. The rhetorical question I pose here is: "If we don't know all of the facts (with which to draw fair and reasonable conclusions), whose fault is that? Whose responsibility is it to present the facts relating to Who, What, When, Where, Why, and How?"

I am so sick and tired (as Bill Cosby's mother used to say) of "news" purveyors that fail in their journalistic responsibilities to provide enough of the facts for us to come to a reasonable and informed conclusion. (But that might require a journalist actually getting up and leaving her/his chair to complete their due diligence, right? <dripping sarcasm>)

santaMufasa
(aka Dave of Sandy, Utah, USA)
“People may forget what you say, but they will never forget how you made them feel."

RE: Librarian wants to ban 5-time reading champ from contest

I am sure that there will be a fleet of lawyers ringing their doorbells to make wind.
That seems to be the way things are going these days.

A friend hired a new person to help with admin duties, first week she called in sick Wednesday and had to leave early another day.
Second week:
Monday fell asleep at work
Tuesday called in sick
Wednesday had a doctors appointment and came at 11:30 just in time to leave at 3:45 for another appointment.
Thursday he told her that her services are no longer required
Friday she showed up with a lawyer demanding to know the reason why she has been fired.

I am sure if someone like that can find a lawyer then these two will have no problem finding a lawyer to get them some money that will help them out until they find a new job.

Joe W.

FHandw, ACSS (SME), ACIS (SME)

http://convergednetworks.ca


“Quality is never an accident; it is always the result of high intention, sincere effort, intelligent direction and skillful execution; it represents the wise choice of many alternatives.”

RE: Librarian wants to ban 5-time reading champ from contest

I finally read guitarzan's post and found it disturbing to see what happens when some people command power.
This whole thing should have been discussed and remediated by sensible adults.

No one should be fired and not informed why; subsequently I label the President was a coward, but of course that's only my assessment.

Finally I'm guessing Tyler wasn't at all happy to see these people sacked.




RE: Librarian wants to ban 5-time reading champ from contest

(OP)
Holy smokes ! I didn't realize how "wussified" California had become. (It was pretty bad when we moved from there in 1991, but now?...Wow!)

santaMufasa
(aka Dave of Sandy, Utah, USA)
“People may forget what you say, but they will never forget how you made them feel."

RE: Librarian wants to ban 5-time reading champ from contest

I know in my area hockey is the prevalent sport.

We have many leagues

Drop in Shinny
Men's League of varying levels of competitiveness
No-Hit-Hockey
Fun Leagues
Competitive Leagues
Elite Leagues

And that's just for the casual players.

Each league sets it's own rules. It is not "wussified" to choose what best suits your needs.

It would be odd to choose a fun league and then expect the rules to be the same as a competitive league.

I don't know if any of this applies to the football league in California, but it rings true to me.

**********************************************
What's most important is that you realise ... There is no spoon.

RE: Librarian wants to ban 5-time reading champ from contest

I believe the level of competitiveness of a hockey team is judged on the "tooth count scale". Add up the number of real teeth a team has, and divide by the number of players. The lower the number, the more competitive and/or "seasoned" the team is.

It's a scientific fact. bigsmile


RE: Librarian wants to ban 5-time reading champ from contest



Unfortunately the Zamboni has scrapped the enamel chips from the rink.

Skip,

glassesJust traded in my old subtlety...
for a NUANCE!tongue

RE: Librarian wants to ban 5-time reading champ from contest

@SamBones - Yup that adds up for me.
Picture of local pro after recent game Sam Gagner Broken Jaw

**********************************************
What's most important is that you realise ... There is no spoon.

RE: Librarian wants to ban 5-time reading champ from contest

And is anyone surprised? Not only is it played on ice at high speed, but everyone is carrying a stick.

I remember when I was young, someone showed me a hockey helmet. I asked about some bumps it had on the back. "Oh, that's so when you break your neck, your head will sit on the ice straight up". "When?!?"




RE: Librarian wants to ban 5-time reading champ from contest

(OP)

Quote (kwbMitel)

Picture of local pro after recent game Sam Gagner Broken Jaw

Now there's a sport that needs some sort of a "Mercy Rule" !

santaMufasa
(aka Dave of Sandy, Utah, USA)
“People may forget what you say, but they will never forget how you made them feel."

RE: Librarian wants to ban 5-time reading champ from contest

kwbMitel,

Do you also have any 'Non-Violent Hockey Leagues'? smile

Have fun.

---- Andy

RE: Librarian wants to ban 5-time reading champ from contest

@ Andrzjek

I know your question was Tongue in Cheek but actually:

http://www.hockeyedmonton.ca/index.php?src=gendocs...

The Hockey Edmonton Recreational Hockey was formed due to a need for an alternative to mainstream hockey. Why is there such a need?

•Players were reaching an age where they were developing social, academic and athletic interests outside of hockey
•The schedule of mainstream hockey season made it difficult for players to schedule other activities, such as part time jobs etc..
•Players were reaching a point in their social development where they didn't necessarily want to play where their skill dictated, but still wanted to play with friends.
Not all players are interested in a physical style of hockey
•Cost was becoming prohibitive

**********************************************
What's most important is that you realise ... There is no spoon.

RE: Librarian wants to ban 5-time reading champ from contest

(OP)
Actually, Andrzejek, None our local (Metro Salt Lake City) adult, non-pro hockey leagues is a contact league.

santaMufasa
(aka Dave of Sandy, Utah, USA)
“People may forget what you say, but they will never forget how you made them feel."

RE: Librarian wants to ban 5-time reading champ from contest

But then I have some friends that play Rugby who feel that Hockey is just a bunch of figure skaters trying to make a game out of it.

A common bumper sticker amongst them is, "Give Blood, Play Rugby".


RE: Librarian wants to ban 5-time reading champ from contest

==> need for an alternative to mainstream hockey. Why is there such a need?
In order words, there is a need for an alternative to competitive hockey. And there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. But then don't go and sell it as a competitive league. Don't call it a competition and then manipulate the rules so that the players are not allowed to compete. That's the real issue to me. It's people who want to call things competitions, but then co-opt the competition to mean something else. Just be honest and call it what it is. Call it a "fun league" or what have you, but be honest that participation in such a league is NOT about competition. It's about having fun; it's about participating. Just don't sell it as a competition when it's not a competition.

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RE: Librarian wants to ban 5-time reading champ from contest

Dave,

You didn't per chance goto FVHS? Was friends with a fellow how's family moved back to Utah from So Cal. A couple of our friends moved the family back in 1969, the two older boys stayed out in So. Cal. Just checking on the off chance.

Jim C.

RE: Librarian wants to ban 5-time reading champ from contest

@CajunCenturion - could you please cite the source for this comment?

"But then don't go and sell it as a competitive league"

**********************************************
What's most important is that you realise ... There is no spoon.

RE: Librarian wants to ban 5-time reading champ from contest

Yes, I will always stand behind and support what I say. because to do otherwise is not who I am.
 
The librarian called this a competition and awarded a prize to the winner, then changed the rules because she didn't like who was winning.  She used the rewards of winning as a means to attract participants, but then denies the reward to the most deserving.  That to me is selling the event as a competition, but not treating it as a competition.

With respect to the California youth league, the fact that so many parents are up in arms, the fact that the imposition of this mercy rule is so controversial and has attracted such wide-spread attention clearly shows that the association leadership has instituted a policy that was completely contrary to the expectations of the membership.  Mercy rules don't exist outside of competitive environments.

Now if you disagree, that's fine.  You can reach a different conclusions from the same set of facts.  That's fine too.  But if you're going to levy accusations that I, or someone else, are placing degrading labels on other people, or that my, or anyone else's reasoning is flawed, then stand up, point out the actual flaws and be specific.

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RE: Librarian wants to ban 5-time reading champ from contest

Ok, I don't know if you are intentionally baiting me Cajuncenturion but when you use a quote from one of my posts I believe it is justified to assume that your response is related to that post. If you want you be clear next time, don't quote my text and make sure everyone understands what you are refering to. The quote you took was completely out of context with the original posted material and it was clear that it was such. My post was in response to a link provided by Sambones about a football league in California. If you want to take things out of context, feel free, but don't get defensive when I don't understand you.

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RE: Librarian wants to ban 5-time reading champ from contest

Quote (CajunCenturion )

==> need for an alternative to mainstream hockey. Why is there such a need?
In order words, there is a need for an alternative to competitive hockey. And there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. But then don't go and sell it as a competitive league.

This is the part that confused me when I read it (and I assume kbwMitel did also). I thought you meant the "it" to be the hockey league, which caused me to re-read the quote kwbMitel posted.. and sure enough, the hockey league is not selling itself as a competitive league, at least nowhere that I can find.

kbwMitel happened to ask the same question that I had. Your reply (well, some of it) makes me think you were referring to the reading contest and the California youth league, and NOT the hockey league. Okay, you cleared that one up. Gotcha. (Or if I am wrong, correct me and also show me where the hockey league IS promoting itself as a competitive league)

But sa to the rest of your last post... Are you really that childish? Holy smokes. He asked a simple question with no animosity, no attitude, just asked you a question on a post that was not clear.

RE: Librarian wants to ban 5-time reading champ from contest

You are correct guitarzan. I was not referring specially to the hockey league and it was not my intent to imply that the hockey was selling itself as such. Bad pronoun use on my part.

==> He asked a simple question with no animosity, no attitude, just asked you a question on a post that was not clear
A question which I answered; however, it you read back through the rest of the thread, the rest of the post may make more sense.

==> But sa to the rest of your last post
Please see my post of 4 Sep 13 17:07. kwbMitel has yet to provide a definitive answer for that. kwbMitel has yet to provide his logic behind what he's hearing from everyone else in his post 4 Sep 13 16:08. And then please see his post of 17 Sep 13 13:11.

It is perfectly reasonable for kwbMitel to ask for me, or anyone else, to cite sources and/or explain their logic. However, I find it equally reasonable for kwbMitel to do the same. I'm still hoping, but not expecting, him to actually answer those question. It is very difficult to have an intelligent debate when all parties are not willing to stand behind their claims, do you not agree?

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Good Luck
To get the most from your Tek-Tips experience, please read
FAQ181-2886: How can I maximize my chances of getting an answer?
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