Librarian wants to ban 5-time reading champ from contest 11

[SantaMufasa]

Librarian wants to ban 5-time reading champ from contest. What are your reactions to this?

Mufasa
(aka Dave of Sandy, Utah, USA)
“People may forget what you say, but they will never forget how you made them feel.

 

[kwbMitel]

@ Guitarzan, Welshbird, and Chrishunt.

Thank you for getting across what I was obviously failing to communicate. From my perspective I said the same things but somehow it didn't take.

**********************************************
What's most important is that you realise ... There is no spoon.

 

[CajunCenturion]

==> I was obviously failing to communicate. From my perspective I said the same things but somehow it didn't take.
I don't think anybody misunderstood your intentions in that regard.

My issue was you accusing other people saying, meaning, and implying things they didn't say, mean, or imply. Then, of course, you unwillingness to stand behind your words.

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[kwbMitel]

CajunCenturion, I don't want to get this started again but you are accusing me of things that don't apply and never did and then asking me to defend myself. This appears unfair to me but rather than continue what seemed a pointless debate, I chose to let it drop. If you wish to interpret this as not standing behind my words, fine, I can live with that too. As far as my intentions were concerned, at no time did anyone seem to acknowledge them so I had no basis to believe anyone understood them which contributed to further confusion in my opinion.

Again, I really don't want to go there. I thought I was being forced to discuss things that were beside the point and I treated them as such.

Now that the point has been accepted on what I was trying to say all along, I can step aside and give credit where it is due.

I appreciate your acknowlegement of my intentions and I will offer my retraction of any statements that did not align with my original intent.

Fair enough?

**********************************************
What's most important is that you realise ... There is no spoon.

 

[CajunCenturion]

==> you are accusing me of things that don't apply and never did and then asking me to defend myself.
Excuse me? Let me remind you then.

From your post of 4 Sep 13 16:08

to impune the efforts, integrity, work ethics, and dedication of the other participants and label them as you have is just as bad.

How can you with a straight face that you're being accused of something doesn't apply and never did when those are your exact words?

And yes, absolutely, I asked you to substantiate that accusation in my post of 4 Sep 13 17:07.

To which post(s) are you referring to? Who has been so critical of and has so labeled the other participants?

and your response

If you don't see how the arguments regarding entitlement and winners and losers is labeling the other participants and finding them wanting then no arguments on my side will convince you otherwise.

In other words, you add insult to injury with that response. That's your justification for not defending the accusations you made?

And that appears unfair to you? It's unfair for someone to ask you how and why you came to make such accusations.

You said,

Somehow, if the person who is best at something does not get his due then everyone else is a slackard.

You think it's unfair for someone to ask what facts you used to arrive at that conclusion?

==> I will offer my retraction of any statements that did not align with my original intent.
Please be specific. What statements are you retracting?

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Good Luck
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Wise men speak because they have something to say, fools because they have to say something. - Plato

 

[kwbMitel]

Nope: CajunCenturion, Like I said twice, I do not want to start again. I take your answer to mean that you do not accept. I can live with that.

**********************************************
What's most important is that you realise ... There is no spoon.

 

[SkipVought]

I have to agree with CC.

Skip,

_{Just traded in my old subtlety...
for a NUANCE!}

 

[tcsbiz]

Our library makes the reading program a self-guided competition. The child and the parent(s) together with the program director decide how many books the child will read in a given period of time. If the child succeeds, they get a small prize such as a free pizza. The program starts at age five and continues until 15. Each year, the child must increase their number of books to read over the prior year. It has been in place for 10 years and the first group is in their last year.

No one competes against anyone except themselves. Business sponsorship of this has been good and provides the prizes. It also does not award prizes if the child does not meet their goal... not even a participation ribbon .

Tom

 

[tcsbiz]

May I call an end to the sniping and arguing that has been going on. Take it offline if you want. This is no place for the bickering. Please act like adults and not children.

Thank you,
Tom

 

[flapeyre]

If you are to have a competition, then, by definition, there will be one winner, and all the rest are losers. The way it's supposed to work is that the winner's success should inspire everybody else to do better.

When "equality of result" becomes the norm, mediocrity results. This benefits no one.

-- Francis
Francisus ego, sed non sum papa.

 

[kwbMitel]

Ok, I'm going to try a different tack on this. Please forgive me if I ask questions to ensure that we are all speaking about the same thing.

@flapeyre regarding your latest post.

If you are to have a competition, then, by definition, there will be one winner, and all the rest are losers.
[ul]
[li]Are you talking about the case at hand with the reading competition?[/li]
[li]Do you really believe that all that do not win are by definition losers?[/li]
[li]Do you really believe that all competitions can only have one winner?[/li]
[/ul]
the winner's success should inspire everybody else to do better.
[ul]
[li]Do you think there might be other measurements of success that might apply to non-winners?[/li]
[li]Do you think that everyone is capable of doing better?[/li]
[/ul]
When "equality of result" becomes the norm, mediocrity results. This benefits no one.
[ul]
[li]Do you think this statement applies to the specifics of this case[/li]
[li]Do you believe that mediocrity resulted in this case[/li]
[li]Do you believe no one benefited from reading if they did not win.[/li]
[/ul]

What I believe:
[ul]
[li]That competition allows you to measure your abilities against others, nothing more.[/li]
[li]That all participants in this specific competition benefited from it[/li]
[li]That I would be satisfied in any competition where I know I have tried my best regardless of the result.(Yes, even last place)[/li]
[li]That this specific event failed in it's composition as events such as these should encourage participation.[/li]
[li]That I have never considered myself a loser in any competition I have entered, where I did not win, as long as I gave it my all.[/li]
[li]That all competitions yield benefits regardless of outcome. Nothing ventured nothing gained.[/li]
[li]That the "equality of result" mentality is real and is wrong but is simply a reaction to it's polar opposite mindset (also wrong IMHO)[/li]
[/ul]

I apoligize in advance for any spelling/gramatical/formatting errors as I'm writing this on my phone

Also, in deference to earlier work, I am not making any judgements or assumptions, only seeking clarification.























**********************************************
What's most important is that you realise ... There is no spoon.

 

[flapeyre]

I was generalizing. What I think is that in this case, it wasn't the competition per se, but the misguided attempt by the administrator to inject "equality" into things.

-- Francis
Francisus ego, sed non sum papa.

 

[kwbMitel]

I think generalizations such as this may have contributed to my earlier reactions that were deemed inappropriate. I think the difference maker this time was in being more clear in what I thought instead of reacting as I did earlier. I'm glad we were able to clear that up. We were all in agreement that something was wrong in the Originally posted material. We differed in what we thought was wrong. I've spent too much time working with kids that are crushed by the winner take all mentality to buy in but I dislike the Equality of result mentality just as much. There is good to be found in every effort, every competitor, and success can be measured in numerous ways. For myself, I am not inspired by the Michael Phelps of this world, I am inspired by those such as Zach Anner
Zach Anner's Work out Wednesday

**********************************************
What's most important is that you realise ... There is no spoon.

 

[karluk]

It's easy to poke fun at both points of view, when carried to extremes. There happened to be comics in yesterday's paper that took opposite perspectives:

http://wpcomics.washingtonpost.com/client/wpc/ft/2013/09/15/

http://wpcomics.washingtonpost.com/client/wpc/pb/2013/09/15/

 

[kwbMitel]

@Karluk, I'm not a fan of either point of view.

Things like this High School Basketball game get to me though.

Hard to argue about who wins and who loses in this game.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=smKPA8qWR6A

**********************************************
What's most important is that you realise ... There is no spoon.

 

[CajunCenturion]

==> I am not inspired by the Michael Phelps of this world, I am inspired by those such as Zach Anner
I too am inspired by Zach Anner, as I hope everyone would be, but comparing Phelps to Anner is an apples to oranges comparison. Phelps competes against other competitors; he swins to win. It's a competition. Anner on the other hand, is not competing against anyone; he's trying to better himself. Some may claim that he's competing against himself, but that's not really true. He's trying to better himself. He's trying to do it better today than he did yesterday. That's not a real competition.

If you don't want a winner; if you don't want to identify who is best, then don't hold a competition. Competition is all about determining who is best; competition IS about winning.

Instead, have a reading fair, or a reading festival, or what have you, where prizes are awarded for achieving milestones. Everyone who achieves a given milestone gets that prize. You earn the milestone, you earn the prize.

Just don't call it a competition unless it IS a competition.

--------------
Good Luck
To get the most from your Tek-Tips experience, please read
FAQ181-2886
Wise men speak because they have something to say, fools because they have to say something. - Plato

 

[kwbMitel]

@ CajunCenturion

Sorry Again with questions:

Competition is all about determining who is best
[ul]
[li]Do you truely believe there are no other determining factors?[/li]
[/ul]

competition IS about winning
[ul]
[li]Do you truely believe winning is all that competition is about[/li]
[/ul]

Have you yourself ever entered a competition knowing that you could not win? If so, why?

Please see my list posted 16 Sep 13 19:40 for what I believe.


We agree that this book event was structured incorrectly. I suspect, but cannot prove, that the intent was not to be a competition but that it got away from the organisers. By the time they tried looking for a solution it was already too late. You'll find, if you check, that I have tried very hard not to refer to it as a competition. I acknowledge that not refering to it as such does not change the facts.



**********************************************
What's most important is that you realise ... There is no spoon.

 

[CajunCenturion]

==> Do you truely believe there are no other determining factors?
Yes, competition is about determining who can perform best. Winning is not an exclusive outcome of competition, but winning is the objective of competition.

==> Do you truely believe winning is all that competition is about
Yes. Winning is the objective of a competition. That's the very definition of competition. That doesn't mean there are benefits to be had from not winning, but that doesn't change the fact that competition is about winning.

==> Have you yourself ever entered a competition knowing that you could not win? If so, why?
I've entered competitions knowing full well that my chances of winning were very small, but I still entered with full intention of winning. I still played to win. For example, you don't become a good chess playing by playing people you beat all the time. No, you get better by getting you butt whipped and learning from the experience. Losing to superior players allows you to get better. You need the challenge and experience of losing to better players in order to get better.

==> That competition allows you to measure your abilities against others, nothing more.
Not nothing more. Yes, measuring and comparing is all about seeing where you fit on the scale with respect to the other competitors. But it's not nothing more because those measurements mean something. They show you what and where are your opportunities to improve. They show you where you need to get better. If it's nothing more, then why do you care where you sit with respect to other competitors? If you truly don't care about winning or being the best, then why do you care where you measure up against the others?

==> That all participants in this specific competition benefited from it
Of course. But benefiting is not the same as winning. And there are benefits from losing, not the least of which is learning how to lose. See mintjulep's outstanding post of 4 Sep 13 16:55.

==> That I would be satisfied in any competition where I know I have tried my best regardless of the result.(Yes, even last place)
That's fine for you, but if that's your approach, I submit that you're not competing, you're simply participating. Yes I've competed and I've done my best, and I have come in last place in competitions, I didn't have any regrets about my efforts, but I was definitely not satisfied with it. I knew that I had some work to do so that I wouldn't come in last place next time. I took it as an opportunity to get better.

==> That this specific event failed in it's composition as events such as these should encourage participation.
This event failed precisely because it was composed as a competition. Competitions aren't supposed to encourage participation; they encourage winning. And that's precisely the reason behind entitlement comment. When competitions are artificially manipulated to control who can and cannot compete, or whose results are manipulated to ensure everyone wins, then you're enabling entitlement mentality. You're teaching that participation in competition entitles you to rewards, not that being the best in a competition results in rewards. And that's a dis-service because life if full of real competitions, where there are winners and losers, and I think it's important that we teach the kids the difference between fun events and competitions. Again, it the framing of a competition as a vehicle for participation rewards that is the problem. There are plenty of opportunities to have events that encourage and reward participation, but competition isn't one of them.

==> That I have never considered myself a loser in any competition I have entered, where I did not win, as long as I gave it my all.
Losing a competition doesn't make you a loser; it means that you lost that competition. And that is an important lesson to teach. Just as doing something stupid doesn't make you stupid, losing a competition doesn't make you a loser. But that doesn't change the fact that did do something stupid and you did lose that competition.

==> That all competitions yield benefits regardless of outcome. Nothing ventured nothing gained.
Agreed, as discussed earlier.

==> That the "equality of result" mentality is real and is wrong but is simply a reaction to it's polar opposite mindset (also wrong IMHO)
Equality of result is wrong. However, the only reason that equality of result mentality exists is because competitions have been abused and manipulated to foster that mentality.

Competition is the wrong vehicle to teach equality of result. That doesn't mean teaching equality of result is necessarily bad; it means that using competition to each equality of result is bad. Competition is not about equality of result. Competition is about winning.

--------------
Good Luck
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FAQ181-2886
Wise men speak because they have something to say, fools because they have to say something. - Plato

 

[kwbMitel]

@CajunCenturion, although I would love to debate the merits of your assertions because I believe they are flawed, I simply do not have the time.

Nor do I think the outcome would be favourable for me. Not because I believe my points are invalid or less worthy but more because I do not believe my skill at debate is as good as yours. If I had the time and energy, I might try to make the effort simply as an exercise for improvement. Again failure or not, would not necessarily reflect on the merits, but on my skill to present them.

If that sounds a lot like how I feel about compitition, you can be assured it was intentional.

**********************************************
What's most important is that you realise ... There is no spoon.

 

[KornGeek]

kwbMitel,

You seem to object strongly to the use of the word "loser" to describe people who do not win. While this word can have strong negative connotations (more of "failure in life"), it can also be used simply as the opposite of "winner".

When one person wins a competition, they are the winner. When another person loses the same competition, they are the loser. This does not mean that they are a loser in life, just in that competition. I mean this with no negative implications. I mean it only as "person who lost".

For instance, I recently competed in an athletic competition. Out of 3 matches, I won one and lost two. I did not finish in the top 3 in my bracket, and only those people won awards. In terms of 2 of my matches and the tournament in general, I was a loser. In terms of one of my matches, I was a winner. In terms of my self-esteem, I felt great for competing and doing as well as I did (which was no small feat for somebody my age with my severely limited athletic prowess).

I don't know if this outlook will make you feel any better about the use of the word, but I'm hoping you might better understand some other people's intentions.

 

[SantaMufasa]

Nor do I think the outcome would be favourable for me. Not because I believe my points are invalid or less worthy but more because I do not believe my skill at debate is as good as yours.

KWB, please don't confuse this thread with a competition where, by definition, there is only one "winner". This is a thread in a forum where the readers and writers benefit from the free exchange of ideas.

Mufasa
(aka Dave of Sandy, Utah, USA)
“People may forget what you say, but they will never forget how you made them feel.