XP Reloaded. A new product. 1

[linney]

Despite Microsoft's repeated denials, the company will indeed release an interim version of Windows XP that will bridge the gap between the initial XP release and Windows Longhorn, which is currently due in late 2005 at the earliest. The interim XP version will ship as a new retail product that replaces existing retail boxed copies of XP and as a set of updates, called XP Reloaded, that existing XP users can install separately. According to sources I contacted this morning, XP Reloaded will include all the features from XP Service Pack 2 (SP2), which is due by midyear, as well as a host of other unique features, including Windows Media Player (WMP) 10.
Other details about XP Reloaded are unknown at this time, although the update kit apparently will include a Web-based installer application that will let users choose optional features. Reports about an XP Version 2 release first cropped up more than a year ago, but Microsoft officials repeatedly denied that the company planned to issue such a release. In early 2004, when the company revealed the new security features that XP SP2 will include, the rumors resurfaced. But the XP Reloaded OS refresh will clearly include a lot more than security updates, possibly in a bid to revive consumer excitement about XP while Microsoft preps the ever-delayed Longhorn release.

http://www.winnetmag.com/windowspaulthurrott/Article/ArticleID/41858/windowspaulthurrott_41858.html

 

[bcastner]

Hold your horses.

The linney link is a complete overstatement and exaggeration of the Microsoft plan for XP.

There is no question that Service Pack #2 when released is no small upgrade to the base operating system; and there is no question because of its size that the underlying code base of the OEM and retail product will be issued with this service package "slipstreamed", as it would be too lengthy to include this service package as a download step during an initial installation. It is no longer tenable to hold to the initial code base for XP and expect a consumer to download Service Pack 1, the hotfix base rollups, DirectX, and Service Pack 2. These should be, and will be, included on retail and OEM CDs in the future.

One change will be that a floppy install of XP is likely not possible. Microsoft has cautioned that future products will require an initial load of the PE environment, and a floppy image is not possible.

Having said that, there are a lot of aspects of Service Pack 2 that are still up in the air as to whether they are included when the service package is released. Microsoft has been very open and clear about what will be included on the Security side:

http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/...d7-b791-40b6-8364-685b84158c78&DisplayLang=en

But changes to the shell in other areas will not take place until Longhorn is released. Longhorn is not "XP Reloaded + updates", the shell model is profoundly different than XP, beginning with a core that reflects the new windows filestore system.

I promise all a FAQ on this site that will include detailed instructions for creating a Service Pack 2 slipstream, as a decent slipstream FAQ is overdue here anyway. When Service Pack 2 goes final.

I respect Paul Thurrott, and there are some aspects of Service Pack 2 as currently planned that do profoundly change XP from its default as issued several years ago. But it is an exaggeration to claim the end result is an interim and new product.

It is just an improved product from a security perspective. This is not a small quibble, as Longhorn when released is a new product in very important ways that the Service Pack 2 for XP will not encompass, and Service Pack 2 when released is an important upgrade relative to Service Pack 1.

As close to 80% of XP users are on dial-up connections, the notion of continuing the original release of XP and its installation becomes untenable with large service packages to download. The notion of including these service packs and hotfix packages with new OEM and Retail CDs is hardly earth shattering news, and does not suggest that the new copies are an interim release of a new OS.

Now this is my opinion only. Paul Thurrott has a different view of the matter. Other than the restraint that I have an NDS with Microsoft, I consider his article a little over the top. As an MS-MVP I will spend April 3-7 as a guest of Microsoft in Seattle, and in particular on April 6 spend an entire day on the plans for XP and Longhorn. But I have spent a lot of time since late December reading about Longhorn, and the plans for Service Pack 2, and I honestly feel that my comments above are acurate: no XP Reloaded.

 

[jsauce]

After testing SP2, my impressions so far is that its not very good. It does add some nice features but overall breaks too much of the operating system and takes too much control away from the user. Its all well and good for average non-power user but anyone who knows anything about Windows XP will hate some of the features because they are preinstalled by the service pack and so far cannot be easily turned off. Just by installing it so far it broke too much of the OS and I had to remove it. It made alot of websites fail its credentials checks. It broke my bios updating software which uses IE active X and javascript. And though i spent hours trying to find a fix could not shut the features off. It adds a few nice features but again none of them are optional and easy to shut off. And worse they load as services so the average user will have a tough time figuring out what to do with them. The fact that Windows Update has changed wasn't good either though I expect it to be fixed before the final release as its in beta right now. The minor security Microsoft has added comes at a high price by taking control away from the consumer and giving it to the operating system and microsoft. Users should have some choice and should have controls that they can easily disable if they choose to, although they should be warned when doing so, ultimately the choice should be theirs and not microsoft's.

John D. Saucier
jsauce@magicguild.com
Certified Technician
Network Administrator

 

[bcastner]

linney,
You likely would enjoy this: bcastner is wrong once again, possibly

 

[bcastner]

jsauce,

I was pretty much fine and okay with most of your comments, although I believe you do not lose the control of your system, until I hit this:

"It made alot of websites fail its credentials checks. It broke my bios updating software which uses IE active X and javascript."

. A certificate check is completely controllable through IE, Tools, Internet Options, Advanced. Granularity in control is available under the Security tab for Internet sites.

. I have never seen a BIOS update package run through IE, and requiring ActiveX. Speaking generally, these require floppy images, and IE much less Service Pack 2 are not involved. If you provide the motherboard make and model, this is an easily resolved issue.

The security side of Service Pack 2 are not for all, but are in its details adjustable for anyone.

 

[pechenegs]

All, how big will Xp sp2 be roughly 100-150 MBs?

anyone/

 

[CTIEng2004]

I am happy with XP Pro, sure a Service Pack would be welcome. But a new OS already? That sucks from a personal standpoint and an IT standpoint. Besides XP Pro has not been out long enough to kill off. MS may be "testing" the waters so to speak.

 

[jurgen36]

: jsauce
I am in complete agreement with you. I installed XPSP2 on one of our spare machines and promptly lost most of my drivers. There is very little controll for the average user. However we tested the code and found out that a lot of the old 16 bit encoding, which you can still find in XP has been replaced with proper 32 bit encoding. But we still found instances where very old 8 bit cpm encoding was used. Ok, overall it should finally improve system stability due to the new 32 bit code, at this time it is simply to early to say what the final product will be like. But MS seems to try to get rid of the old coding, this is very recomendable. We did test the pre beta release of Longhorn as well. I do like the new GUI, but as it was pre beat there is very little to say about it apart from a complete system crash. But this is to be expected of a pre beta version.
Regards

Jurgen

 

[jsauce]

Well I have an MSI KT6 Delta board which uses Live Update 3 which goes through IE to connect to the Live Update site and get the updates and install them much like Windows Update. SP2 broke this so badly and a lot of other sites. And to bcastner, after more than an hour trying to get IE to actually do what its suppose and having it completely ignore me I gave up. Not only that but IE put a tab across the screen of the website and said something to the effect that it could not allow this to run because it thought it was unsafe and including an option for me to allow, which I promptly clicked. Which then did nothing, but render the site even worse full of script errors and blocked content. I did have to say that the system was definitely more stable under SP2 and I'm impressed that Microsoft is trying to improve security but my concern is again that they are taking control away from the user. I will not be upgrading to SP2 as it is if it doesn't change and I know a lot of people will not. Microsoft needs to make SP2 Security features one button disablable. Jurgen32 I think SP2 is definitely more stable than Windows XP SP1 and if not for the security junk it would be easy for many users to install it but I think most will choose not to give full control of their computers to microsoft. Pechenegs SP2 right now is like 400mb+ and Its only going to get bigger if they add more to it. This will be a huge update and its obvious that dialup and the average users won't want to download this. Microsoft will probably be selling a lot of cds with it on it.

John D. Saucier
jsauce@magicguild.com
Certified Technician
Network Administrator

 

[bcastner]

jurgen36,

"But we still found instances where very old 8 bit cpm encoding was used. Ok, overall it should finally improve system stability due to the new 32 bit code, at this time it is simply to early to say what the final product will be like. But MS seems to try to get rid of the old coding, this is very recomendable. We did test the pre beta release of Longhorn as well. I do like the new GUI, but as it was pre beat there is very little to say about it apart from a complete system crash. But this is to be expected of a pre beta version.
Regards "

This was a joke comment. I hope.
. There is not a trace of "8 bit cpm encoding"
. There was no "pre-beta test of longhorn"
. There are no "pre-beta" versions for you to test of any Microsoft product.

Bill Castner
MS-MVP

 

[jurgen36]

: jsauce
I do agree once again. The overall stability seems to be improved, but we will not live with the new security measures, which apparently can not be disabled.We do not need them at all as all our web connections go via a router/firewall which runs in unix. Since we installed the firewall we had no incidences of any virus/worm/trojan infection. So we most assuredly will not upgrade to sp2. Regards

Jurgen

 

[bcastner]

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/microsoft/2001865989_reloaded26.html

 

[jsauce]

I myself route through a firewall linux setup and I too do not need a windows security install. Like I said if Microsoft creates a one button removal or disabling feature I'd consider installing it.

John D. Saucier
jsauce@magicguild.com
Certified Technician
Network Administrator

 

[bcastner]

jsauce,

If your intention is to promote Linux, fine. But this is the wrong forum to do so. If you have a specific issue with the XP Client shell, then please explain it. If you cannot stand Bill Gates, or other MS heads, then just say so and get over it.

You babble above: " And to bcastner, after more than an hour trying to get IE to actually do what its suppose and having it completely ignore me I gave up. Not only that but IE put a tab across the screen of the website and said something to the effect that it could not allow this to run because it thought it was unsafe and including an option for me to allow, which I promptly clicked. Which then did nothing, but render the site even worse full of script errors and blocked content. I did have to say that the system was definitely more stable ..."

I am still baffled as to your problem with IE.

 

[bcastner]

And a note to linney:

Nominations for the next round of MS-MVP's elections have to be done by next monday.

I wrote some nice stuff about you.

Hope it helps.
Bill

 

[jsauce]

You are correct I do like Linux but that wasn't my intention at all. I was just pointing out the problem I had with SP2 is all. I use Windows XP as the os on my primary machine. Sorry that it came off that I was bashing IE because I wasn't. I use IE as my primary browser. I was however bashing parts of SP2 because it is very problematic. I do not have anything personal against Microsoft or Bill Gates. And I stated that I believed that the intentions of Microsoft were good with respect to addressing security, however they are going about it wrong. And my post to you was to point out the problem I was having with regards to my bios update software which updates through IE because you said that you hadn't heard of such a thing. I was pointing out the problem is all. Again my problem wasn't with IE just IE + SP2.

John D. Saucier
jsauce@magicguild.com
Certified Technician
Network Administrator

 

[jurgen36]

: bcastner
"There was no pre-beta test of Longhorn."
I am sorry to disagree. I have the release right in front of me. I quote.

"Code Name Longhorn Build 4051 PDV Edition (C) 2004 Microsoft Corporation 180 Day License"

Ok may be it is not officially called pre-beta, but as it is not a beta version, but an official release, what can we call it?

"There is no 8 bit cpm code in sp2."
I will come back on this. This is my fault, as I did not take any location notes as our unassembler found the two instances with cpm copyright notes. I will reply on monday night, as I am not at the University over the weekend.
Regards




Jurgen

 

[bcastner]

Jurgen,

I am uncertain that starting a pissing contest helps anyone here.

I suspect it is completely my fault, and I apologize.

I am constrained as to how much I can say, but the 4051X build of Longhorn is a valid release, and is not pre-beta. I have one machine running this since early December without issue. Microsoft is very nice to its MVPs, and access to beta versions of it OS has never been a problem for me. But you would need, and I would know if you had, significant access to look at Longhorn and other candidates for Windows NT 7.

"linney"'s note that started this thread is what is an interesting notion for me. The notion of an interum release of XP, pre-Longhorn. While several names have been suggested, "shorthorn" is popular, "shoehorn" gets my vote.

Win2k Professional will no longer be available at Retail or OEM sites in 30 days. My guess is that what you will see is "shoehorn" as a replacement product. Essentially this is XP with Service Pack 2 slipstreamed. It is not a new product.

Since you are using Longhorn 4051X, you are familiar with "aero" the new shell. This is the least important part of Longhorn. What is key is the WFS, "Windows File System", and "Whitby" and "Yukon." My guess is three years before we see a true replacment OS from Microsoft.

 

[jurgen36]

: bcastner
Now I have to apologise! I did believe Longhorn 4051 PDC was not a release version. I was very much in a hurry to test the os for possible use in our university, after a final release of course. I didn't had to much time on my hands as we have the final exams of our students at this time and I had many meeting with my staff.

The other issue, what I thing happened, was that they had to fill some code in a hurry and just used some reliable code to fill the engpass and get the os going. I am quite sure that it will not be in the final version. Regards

Jurgen

 

[bcastner]

Jurgen,

One of the best aspects of a user forum, and Tek-Tips is a a very good one, is that one can make a claim and be brought up short immediately by someone else. I have learned more from the rough and tumble side of user forums than I could in any other venue.

My best wishes to you,
Bill Castner