Windows Install to F puts some files on C 2

[TonyJollans]

The story so far ..

I have decided to go for XP (everything went so smoothly when I installed it) but don't want to lose 98 because I know I have some software which doesn't run on XP. So I want to have a dual-boot system at the moment and I want to be able to discard 98 eventually, so ..

Starting from scratch, I have repartitioned and reformatted my hard drive and installed Win 98 to drive F, with a view to putting XP on drive C, but ..

The Win 98 install and at least one driver install have put 16 files in total on the C: root directory. Several of these are log files, but there are also some startup files. the files are:

autoexec.bat
bootlog.prv
bootlog.txt
command.com
config.sys
detlog.txt
fetndi.log
frunlog.txt
io.sys
msdos.---
msdos.sys
netlog.txt
setuplog.txt
suhdlog.dat
system.1st
videorom.bin

The questions are:

Can I move them somewhere else and make sure Windows knows about them?
Might there be other files created there in the future?
Will there be any conflicts when I install XP on the C drive?
Will they cause any problems when I remove 98 in the future?

Enjoy,
Tony

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[ski]

See if this helps:

http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/pro/using/howto/gettingstarted/multiboot.asp

 

[TekTippy4U]

See this as well;

http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/expertzone/columns/russel/september10.asp

TT4U

Notification:
These are just "my" thoughts....and should be carefully measured against other opinions.
Backup All Important Data/Docs..All involved shall be spared the grief.

 

[wolluf]

Tony - it would help if you explained how you set up your dual boot (I read your earlier thread). Standard M$ 98/XP dual boot has 98 on C: (first partition on first drive) and XP on X: (second or subsequent partition on first drive or partition on second drive).

You can't install 98 on F: with a view to installing XP on C: - because drive letters are all relative to the operating system currently booting (I'm pretty sure 98 always thinks its on C: - wherever its actually installed - I've got a 98 installation on partition 3 of drive 2 - still on C: to itself).

You can create a dual boot with the 2 operating systems independent (so if you lster want to wipe one, it won't upset the other) - but best using a third party boot manager. In this case (assuming one hard drive) you need a primary partition for each operating system (ie, don't use extended partition). Also, need to hide the first operating system's partition while installing second (doesn't matter which is first - but if you intend losing 98 after a while, I'd make XP first).

http://www.boot-us.com

is a free for personal use boot manager I use (and recommend) which also has partition hide/unhide functionality.

anyway - please post back, I'm sure we can sort this out.

 

[TonyJollans]

ski, TT4U,

Thanks, but neither of those really addresses the issue.

wolluf,

Previously, I re-installed 98 and got it working (although I had some troubles with the network), and I then installed XP to dual-boot with it - nothing fancy, just followed the setup process.

Probably because I can't resist tinkering I thought it would be nice if I could (a) separate system and application data and (b) arrange it so that I could eventually drop 98 and just be left with XP on C:

So I partitioned my (single) physical drive (using FDISK and FORMAT) with a primary partition (C: 2G) and three logical DOS drives (D: 10G, E: 6G, F: 2G) and planned to install 98 to F: with Application data in E: and XP to C: with application data in D:. The idea was that later I could drop F: and E: and reconfigure as a single E: drive to be used with the remaining XP system. As I write this, I realise that might be a bit brutal and might cause problems with the boot manager (M$ or other).

Having repartitioned, I installed 98 to F:\WINDOWS and it all works fine and Windows knows it's on F:, except, as I say, for the handful of files on C:. F: is, of course, in my extended partition; you say I need a separate primary partition for each OS; I have not seen that anywhere else and it kinda scuppers the rest of my plans. Also you suggest I install XP first - I thought I had to install the earlier one first, I didn't know I could add 98 to an XP setup - I might try that later.

Again, thinking as I write, I guess the boot process needs to look somewhere in order to know what to do and that would explain perhaps the ones created by format /s. What I'm unsure about is the rest - some of the log files (like setuplog.txt) and backup files (like msdos.---) may be created before Windows properly exists and have to go somewhere; but what of the others which may be (re-)created later - what controls where they go? Is there a setting I can change either during install, or later?

It may be I'm just making my life difficult; there are so many things to learn. Anyway, I'm going to save them all and try installing XP on C: now - the worst that can happen is I have to start again.

One final point: I told Mrs J what I was planning and she was a bit unsure about losing 98 completely, so I might rethink my plans. Most important thing (to me) is that I understand what I'm doing, whatever that ends up being.

Enjoy,
Tony

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[TekTippy4U]

tONY;
MY 2 cents is more along the lines of mine, ski's link and wollufs advice...if you read the links carefully.....they explain..Why one needs to first install 98 (or earlier OSes)

Wolluf is giving you a good workaround.....by creating 2 primary partitions and HIDING one from the other during the Installs....so One OS doesn't realize the other even exists....and in combo with a Boot manager to choose which Primary part.(or OS) to boot to on each startup.
This way it "doesn't" matter *which* OS gets installed first, second, or 3, 4, 5...etc
(and I'm not sure in this sit....what's the best way to set up shared data/apps...I'm sure wolluf will tell ya)

Win98 boot files are on C: cause that's the Primary partition the way you set it up with Fdisk....and it reads the code in the MBR (created by fdisk) for the Master Partition Table and Active Primary Partition....
Using wolluf's method you'll HIDE that partition completely during the install

The more general prob it seems is that the Program Files folder and Apps installed to it .....Write dll's, .exe and data to the SYSTEM folder and the WINDOWS folders....

Wolluf's method is the probable best method to use if you *must* use 1 HDD....Each OS is completely separated and won't muck up each other...

If you review the link i gave, you just substitiute XP where it says NT, and substitute Fat32 where it says Fat16
Also, then, if you want to share DATA and APPS...create a extended partitions in Fat32, so win98 as well as XP can see them....just remember, when you finally BLow away 98, that it's still Fat32, and either convert to NTFS then, or wipe and Reinstall....

The thing I'm not sure of is what will happen when and if 98 is on C:, and XP is on F:, and then you wipe C;...can you then make F: the Primary Active, and fix the setup with the XP CDROM..
or would you just move everything on F: over to a newly created C:
or just Install a fresh copy of XP onto C:

this can get quite confusing

Consider using 2 HDD to make it easy on ya

TT4U

Notification:
These are just "my" thoughts....and should be carefully measured against other opinions.
Backup All Important Data/Docs..All involved shall be spared the grief.

 

[wolluf]

Tony - if you install a windows operating system on a logical drive in an extended partition, it will ALWAYS need to put some files on the first primary partition (C drive - as this is where the boot sector is (only primary partitions can be booted directly - which is why I advised using 2 primary partitions for your set up). With the extended partition scenario, the bios transfers control to the primary partition's boot sector, and then code there points to the extended partition you're actually booting (for 98, I think its actually in msdos.sys, eg in your case

[Paths]
WinDir=F:\WINDOWS
WinBootDir=F:\WINDOWS

The point being that you could have lots of windows installations on various logical drives - but they all use the same boot sector on C: (so if you later want to drop one - like 98, you have to be careful about not wiping out the boot sector, making the other not bootable). However, the way you've gone about installing this dual boot is unusual and (the more I think about it) possibly quite clever! As you've installed 98 on F: instead of the usual C: to start with. So if XP installs ok on C: (and 98 still bootable), you are ok to later remove 98 (because its not installed on the boot partition - the usual problem is people wipe the 98 (C drive, and that wipes the boot sector for both. But in your case, you'd only need to wipe the contents of F: and remove the entry from boot.ini.

look forward to next update!

 

[TonyJollans]

Thanks for all the info. So, if the OSes can see each other the earliest must be installed first, but if they can't it makes no difference - I guess that figures. I could add a second hard drive but I don't see how that would help; as far as Windows is concerned, is the physical location actually significant?

I have now installed XP on C: and all appears well with both systems. The files that 98 put on C: don't seem to be a problem and they have now been joined by BOOT.INI. So far all seems to be going according to plan and, if I read you right, removing 98 in the future might be almost as simple as I want. For the moment I'm happy with this side of it.

Next, partitions. I understand that the MBR looks for and loads the boot record for the active partition (which in my case will now be the dual boot control installed with XP). If I had multiple primary partitions with OSes hidden from each other, how would it know which to boot from - would that be where the third party boot manager comes in? An academic point at the moment, just interested.

My next problem, I suspect, is going to be shared Apps. No problems at the moment (but I haven't got much installed yet). A small point is the licence agreement (to install on one computer?); more interesting might be shared DLLs and use counts depending on how they are installed, but I'm just imagining at present! I may be back

Enjoy,
Tony

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[TekTippy4U]

Tony;

Take what i'm saying with a beer or two..
I'm not SURE of any of what's below...but thinking about it..like you...peaked my curiosity as well.....
AFAIK, you should've or should make a BIG NOTE of those "few" 98 files that got installed on C:...though a much better way of monitoring this is using a small free utility llike RegShot

http://www.webattack.com/get/regshot.html

or the one Sysinternals offers...though even this is not a one-stop-shopping method cause neither proggie(afaik) monitor changes in *.ini, *.bat, *.sys files, and such, etc.

It's only going to get worse as you add apps/data and as time goes on I suspect..unless you use the Boot Manager method to completely HIDE the other OSes/partitions from each other(and yes the boot manager will allow you to CHOOSE on Boot, which OS you use).

A standard win98 install uses over 2000 dll and exe....and that's not even including Office (another 1000 or so).....how all these dlls find and use info stored here and there, is not a variable you can/want to alter (internal module workings)...i don't think.

I'm assuming you formatted all part's in Fat32...right?...otherwise sharing from 98 would be null, as far as using anything located on C:\......and besides, if C:\ was NTFS......then 98 wouldn't be able to use it's necessary Boot files found on C:\.....right....?

ergo....Even if booting into F:\ - '98...you can still SEE the C:\ drive....right???....If so, this is where the problem lies....cause anything installed on F:\ when in 98, can use C:\ to read-from/write-to whenever any dll feels like it....and it WILL, given the chance..IMO

Using the boot manager with one HDD with mult. part's....or using 2 separate HDD with XP in NTFS and 98 in Fat32...atleast then 98 won't be able to muck up the XP Install on C:\.....and ALL the 98 system/boot files will actually be on F:\ ....even though the funny side-effect using a Boot Manager is that 98 will THINK it's running on C:\....no??(Basically it'll make the system SEEM to have 2 separate HDD's with "each" having their own Active Primary partition)

C:\ will have a Program Files folder for XP and so will F:\ for 98, as each will have a Windows folder....again..this is the prob in sharing..

Without using a Boot Manager...,
Even if you formatted C:\ in NTFS...XP will SEE the 98 partition and "may" muck that up a bit..or write something to it, that it should've written to C:\..depending on the App and or Data being inter-mingled...(i'm not sure if you can create a Fat32 extended partition in an ntfs primary)..

BTW...I think the other limitation is that you weren't able to make F:\ the Primary Active part., when installing 98 (because Fdisk will default to C:\..?...this could be why the boot files are on C:\).....and i don't think you can make F:\ a primary using Fdisk, cause you'll need to "make active" C:\, BEFORE you're allowed to even 'create' the one Extended part., which contains all the other logical Dos drives....?

A Boot Manager will overcome all these things i would think...the other advantage is that it'll enable you to "hide" the 98 part., from XP...i think???......maybe NONE of this jibberish matters..and if so, I apologize for hogging so much of your thread and wasting your time, as well as others....

TT4U

Notification:
These are just "my" thoughts....and should be carefully measured against other opinions.
Backup All Important Data/Docs..All involved shall be spared the grief.

 

[TonyJollans]

Hi TT4U,

A beer or two helps many things! Just thinking aloud really, now, ..

I do have a list of all the files 98 put on C:, and copies of them. I haven't yet checked to see if any have changed and/or whether they are boot information or install remnants or something else. I can see that a separate boot manager which deludes OSes into thinking they are on C:, regardless of where they actually are can protect against it, but surely the question of interaction between different M$ OSes has been addressed by M$ (or is that just plain naivety?). Of course, not all my software is from Microsoft and, at the moment, I'm just watching and learning.

RegShot looks like a handy tool - more than once before I could have used it. Thanks for that. You are certainly right that there are many things to watch out for, and I'm far from sure about sharing apps; the 'official' line seems to be to install separate copies for each system.

What (I think) ought to work is to have a single copy of all the unique elements (exes, templates etc., maybe some dlls) and separate copies, per system, of elements which the install process puts somewhere other than the directory the product is installed to. Of course, arranging that is not easy! You are right, all my partitions are Fat32, and I can see everything from both systems. What this means is that I can have a shared DLL in, say, my WINDOWS 98 directory which XP can use (and potentially will without any action on my part). I suspect trouble will come when I uninstall apps because, even if I am careful to uninstall on the same system I installed on, I can't safely delete any shared DLLs without checking for a zero use count in BOTH systems which, I suspect, must be a manual process. My Program Files directory is not a great problem. I can move it (carefully!) and I don't HAVE to install apps into it (them).

I agree, I can't make my F: a primary partition and, unless I install 98 to my first primary, I don't think I can stop it creating files there, unless I have a separate boot manager which I will investigate. Meanwhile I'm ticking over as I am and worst case is I have to start again from scratch (which I'm getting quite good at), so I'm being careful to back things up.

I don't consider you to be wasting my time; I can do that all by myself, and I can speak jibberish .

Thanks for your input, it all aids in my understanding.


Enjoy,
Tony

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[wolluf]

Tony,

You were asking about multiple primary installations & boot manager. Firstly, you don't have to hide the operating systems you're not booting (unless you have 2 win9x/ME - most boot managers need to hide the first to be able to boot the second). Secondly, the boot manager manages the hiding/activation of partitions - after you choose which to boot.

As for shared apps - as long as you're using fat32 so both o/s can write to it, you should be able to install to a shared 'program files' (or whatever) folder. BUT, you'll need to install the app twice - once in each o/s (so it can write its system files/registry entries correctly) - to the same actual location (whatever that is from the o/s installing from). This would - as you noted - cause a problem with uninstalling (after uninstalling from one o/s, you'd need to reinstall then uninstall in the other to pick up the system files/registry entries).

Of course any of the simpler apps that just run an executable, no problem.

 

[TekTippy4U]

Tony;
thanks for the kind words...the sincerity means alot....

As far as the "interaction", and MS having 'thought' about it..I wouldn't count on them thinking of 'your' particular scenario....(especially the 'uninstalling' 98 later piece....and having been on F:\),.... and then having "everything else" still work properly.....heck, even with one OS only, this can be a prob., ..in and of itself....

Depending on your exact needs, it's important to consider keeping one OS away from the other, as far as possible..

All in all, so far, it seems just like the relationship Win95 and NT had, .....but instead, using FAT32, instead of Fat16....think about what it would be like removing one of those OSs in a dual boot config and YET, being able to access your Important Data and Apps even if each 'data' and 'apps' installed on completely diff parts. than the OSs.......also XP will remain fat32, though convertible to NTFS....the cluster size will be diff than a clean install....and effects efficiency of the file system (i think?).

wolluf makes a really good point concerning 'installing' and 'uninstalling' apps TWICE, from within EACH separate OS, to the EXACT same location ....(but just imagine how confusing this can get, ....alot of problems can arise from the "App" reaching out for and using the wrong dll versions and corrupting data..

There's quite alot to consider, and having "mission critical", so to speak, apps and data are really the only holdback, if any, from you persuing your little experimentation (i commend thee for it)...and, i have no idea how using other OS specific software affects any of this ..(any flavor of *nix).. You be the judge.


TT4U

Notification:
These are just "my" thoughts....and should be carefully measured against other opinions.
Backup All Important Data/Docs..All involved shall be spared the grief.