Netbooks have been based of linux, now I HAVE to buy a M$ product? I'm just looking for a EEE, fairly built up with any flavor of linux. I'll be using it to code while in my boring lectures next semester. Also my asus G2 is too fracking heavy to take to class any more.
Tek-Tips is the largest IT community on the Internet today!
Members share and learn making Tek-Tips Forums the best source of peer-reviewed technical information on the Internet!
-
Congratulations Chriss Miller on being selected by the Tek-Tips community for having the most helpful posts in the forums last week. Way to Go!
What happened to linux netbooks?
- Thread starter Achellin
- Start date
Microsoft has been pretty much taking over that space of late as well, it seems, particularly since they started gearing up netbooks with Win7.
I don't see why you couldn't get a netbook, regardless of OS, and then just install your flavor of Linux onto it.
I don't see why you couldn't get a netbook, regardless of OS, and then just install your flavor of Linux onto it.
- Thread starter
- #3
You can always switch them to Linux and then switch them back to Windows before you sell them or give them away.
I don't know what W7 Starter has but it takes up 10Gb. Linux/XP only take up 1.5Gb. On a 160Gb disk, that is 1/16th instead of 1/100th.
I don't know what W7 Starter has but it takes up 10Gb. Linux/XP only take up 1.5Gb. On a 160Gb disk, that is 1/16th instead of 1/100th.
You basically have to look really hard to find them, but they are out there...
e.g.:
System76
Linux Netbook - Small Linux Laptops
Ben
"If it works don't fix it! If it doesn't use a sledgehammer..."
How to ask a question, when posting them to a professional forum.
Only ask questions with yes/no answers if you want "yes" or "no"
e.g.:
System76
Linux Netbook - Small Linux Laptops
Ben
"If it works don't fix it! If it doesn't use a sledgehammer..."
How to ask a question, when posting them to a professional forum.
Only ask questions with yes/no answers if you want "yes" or "no"
It's a simple case of economics.
If 99.9% of people want Windows, then it's simply not pratical or economical for large companies to cater for the .1% (total desktop pentration for Linux is estimated around 1%). That's where the smaller, more specialised retailers come in.
However to say that you are paying 30% extra is misleading. If you have to cater for the .1% then the extra labour, imaging, stocking, promotions, delivery, helpdesk support, driver support will soon add up to this.
Personally I think Linux is a better platform for netbooks, but the mass market rules at the end of the day.
Robert Wilensky:
We've all heard that a million monkeys banging on a million typewriters will eventually reproduce the entire works of Shakespeare. Now, thanks to the Internet, we know this is not true.
If 99.9% of people want Windows, then it's simply not pratical or economical for large companies to cater for the .1% (total desktop pentration for Linux is estimated around 1%). That's where the smaller, more specialised retailers come in.
However to say that you are paying 30% extra is misleading. If you have to cater for the .1% then the extra labour, imaging, stocking, promotions, delivery, helpdesk support, driver support will soon add up to this.
Personally I think Linux is a better platform for netbooks, but the mass market rules at the end of the day.
Robert Wilensky:
We've all heard that a million monkeys banging on a million typewriters will eventually reproduce the entire works of Shakespeare. Now, thanks to the Internet, we know this is not true.
I bought a netbook for my wife a couple of months ago. It came with win7. At the time, you could still easily find Dell netbooks on their site. Of course the same hardware came with the free Ubuntu for the same price as one with 7.
I agree that removing windows should translate to a lower cost. Hell, just sell me a machine that is functional and don't put anything on it for me. I would prefer that as I could get a clean install.
I suspect that a decent portion of the cost is subsidized by all the bloat-ware applications that come with windows. While the netbook didn't have quite as much as a desktop, it still had plenty. On the first boot up it wanted to install all this AV and other crap on it from the image that would work for 30 days and then wants a CC.
I removed most of the bloat stuff, put Avira on it for Windows and then dual booted it with Linux. My wife has come to greatly prefer it (ubuntu) over Windows, saying it is much easier to use and more intuitively designed. Once Linux went on it, I don't think it has been booted to 7.
I agree that removing windows should translate to a lower cost. Hell, just sell me a machine that is functional and don't put anything on it for me. I would prefer that as I could get a clean install.
I suspect that a decent portion of the cost is subsidized by all the bloat-ware applications that come with windows. While the netbook didn't have quite as much as a desktop, it still had plenty. On the first boot up it wanted to install all this AV and other crap on it from the image that would work for 30 days and then wants a CC.
I removed most of the bloat stuff, put Avira on it for Windows and then dual booted it with Linux. My wife has come to greatly prefer it (ubuntu) over Windows, saying it is much easier to use and more intuitively designed. Once Linux went on it, I don't think it has been booted to 7.
Yeah, if all you're doing (like most people nowadays) is browsing the web, checking email (on the web), maybe doing some basic document type tasks, Ubuntu is just super easy. I've generally only run into problems there when it comes to installing some peripherals like many printers/scanners/mfc devices.. And of course if you do some other more specific/advanced tasks, then the OS matters more. Really, the latter is what has kept me personally with Windows. If I were only doing web and email, I'd probably use Linux more myself. ![[smile]](/data/assets/smilies/smile.gif "[smile] [smile]")
Then again, if I weren't doing the more technical things, then I'd probably not know much about Linux at all... to the point where I probably wouldn't even try it.
Then again, if I weren't doing the more technical things, then I'd probably not know much about Linux at all... to the point where I probably wouldn't even try it.kjv1611, out of curiosity, what tasks do you prefer Windows for?
It still seems to have superior support for things like embedded development tools (DSPs, FPGAs, etc) though that is slowly changing, especially as a lot of those are now based on GCC, and Windows definitely has the edge as far as gaming goes.
I agree that printers and scanners are a particular problem for Ubuntu. I notice that more hardware vendors are providing drivers but that they bury them in hard to find places. At least they do provide them and appear to have gotten past the misconception that they need to give away the source code for everything if they write it for Linux.
I think a lot of the compatibility problem has to do with the fact that Windows doesn't enforce compliance with many of the published standards. Instead work around drivers are provided that handle a lot of the exceptions. Then the vendors simply test to the 'it works with Windows' point and be done with it. Less effort, less time, and still a large percentage of market penetration.
It still seems to have superior support for things like embedded development tools (DSPs, FPGAs, etc) though that is slowly changing, especially as a lot of those are now based on GCC, and Windows definitely has the edge as far as gaming goes.
I agree that printers and scanners are a particular problem for Ubuntu. I notice that more hardware vendors are providing drivers but that they bury them in hard to find places. At least they do provide them and appear to have gotten past the misconception that they need to give away the source code for everything if they write it for Linux.
I think a lot of the compatibility problem has to do with the fact that Windows doesn't enforce compliance with many of the published standards. Instead work around drivers are provided that handle a lot of the exceptions. Then the vendors simply test to the 'it works with Windows' point and be done with it. Less effort, less time, and still a large percentage of market penetration.
No problem, Noway2.
The printer thing I could probably get around quite honestly, I do think I could find ways.
The MAIN things are audio and video recording and editing. I do a LOT of that for my church. And though there are options out there, none of them are as good (from what I've read, and what little I've seen) as what I'm using.
I'm using Adobe Audition, primarily, for audio; and Sony Vegas for Video (primarily). However, I've not had enough time to hardly touch video of late.
Games sort of, but I don't have enough time to mess with them, really. I do like to pick up and play something once in a blue moon, say if I'm on vacation for a while, and we get a day where we're just around the house anyway.
Otherwise, personally, I think most if not everything else I do could be done on a Linux Distro. The first time I ran Ubuntu 10, I REALLY thought to myself - I've really got to set up my main system as a dual-boot, so I could just use Ubuntu at will, not having to wait on the CD. Still might do it, but it's just another time thing.
Well, on the audio/video stuff, for printing as well, I've used a few different printers. Mainly HP, but I've also a Samsung and an Epson so far...
Well, I'm going on and on... need to just go on to bed, really. ;p![[morning]](/data/assets/smilies/morning.gif "[morning] [morning]")
The printer thing I could probably get around quite honestly, I do think I could find ways.
The MAIN things are audio and video recording and editing. I do a LOT of that for my church. And though there are options out there, none of them are as good (from what I've read, and what little I've seen) as what I'm using.
I'm using Adobe Audition, primarily, for audio; and Sony Vegas for Video (primarily). However, I've not had enough time to hardly touch video of late.
Games sort of, but I don't have enough time to mess with them, really. I do like to pick up and play something once in a blue moon, say if I'm on vacation for a while, and we get a day where we're just around the house anyway.
Otherwise, personally, I think most if not everything else I do could be done on a Linux Distro. The first time I ran Ubuntu 10, I REALLY thought to myself - I've really got to set up my main system as a dual-boot, so I could just use Ubuntu at will, not having to wait on the CD. Still might do it, but it's just another time thing.
Well, on the audio/video stuff, for printing as well, I've used a few different printers. Mainly HP, but I've also a Samsung and an Epson so far...
Well, I'm going on and on... need to just go on to bed, really. ;p
cmeagan656
Technical User
Dell now has a Mini 10n netbook, a laptop, and a desktop with Ubuntu.
There are also an ultrathin laptop targeted at small businesses (Vostro V13) and a Latitude netbook (Latitude 2100).
Hope this helps.
Please help us help you. Read Tek-Tips posting polices before posting.
Canadian members check out Tek-Tips in Canada for socializing, networking, and anything non-technical.
There are also an ultrathin laptop targeted at small businesses (Vostro V13) and a Latitude netbook (Latitude 2100).
Hope this helps.
Please help us help you. Read Tek-Tips posting polices before posting.
Canadian members check out Tek-Tips in Canada for socializing, networking, and anything non-technical.
Yes, I see the link again. Unfortunately it is the SAME PRICE $299 as the Windows 7 edition. Whats more is that it has almost the same specs: same processor, same memory, same display, same hard drive, same network. The difference is that it has HALF the battery, only a 28 Watt-hour instead of a 56 Watt-hour.
How do they justify this? They put an OS on there that doesn't cost them anything, reduce the battery and charge the same price?
Your better off getting the standard edition and dual booting the thing!
How do they justify this? They put an OS on there that doesn't cost them anything, reduce the battery and charge the same price?
Your better off getting the standard edition and dual booting the thing!
Noway2, that goes back to what was mentioned earlier in this thread - I think it was this thread. Training costs for their employs and research costs. They've been doing Windows for years, while Ubuntu Linus is still fairly new at Dell, on a selling point (no idea of what they do use or have used internally). Besides that, Microsft wants companies like Dell and HP to put their OS out there, and as such, they cut them a big discount over what anybody else in the world will get. So, the costs for each copy is probably much less than the R&D costs and training costs associated with Linux at this point.
And then there are all the "extras" the OEMs include, often - at least rumored, not sure if accurate or not - get paid for putting a lot of the trial software from diff developers on the systems. So, if they get paid for 5 programs, and already got a discount on Windows, then their cost is probably really really low per system.
And now I shall be quiet.![[wink]](/data/assets/smilies/wink.gif "[wink] [wink]")
And then there are all the "extras" the OEMs include, often - at least rumored, not sure if accurate or not - get paid for putting a lot of the trial software from diff developers on the systems. So, if they get paid for 5 programs, and already got a discount on Windows, then their cost is probably really really low per system.
And now I shall be quiet.
I see 2 problems with moving to linux. 1) Lack of software, as compared to Microsoft.
2) The cost of moving from Windows to Linux.
Take a medium/large company. More than likely they are an MS shop (maybe a few Unix servers, maybe even a mainframe (ok, it would be a large company)) I came from such a company. We had a large number of windows programs developed in house that would need to be ported. A VERY large undertaking. Do you have an IT staff that 1) Can administer Linux? Do you have enough programmers to convert you apps. 3) Can you replace your network infrastructure, away from Active Directory? Can you use existing hardware with linux? Then you will need to train ALL users. Do you have the staff to do so? AND users will want any new programs to work EXCATLY like the old ones. If not, users will complain until hell freezes over. Do you have upper management behind the effort?
If upper management can't get behind this project, it won't get done, no matter what pc/laptop the company buys. Therefore pc manufacturers are going to continue to sell what business needs/wants.
2) The cost of moving from Windows to Linux.
Take a medium/large company. More than likely they are an MS shop (maybe a few Unix servers, maybe even a mainframe (ok, it would be a large company)) I came from such a company. We had a large number of windows programs developed in house that would need to be ported. A VERY large undertaking. Do you have an IT staff that 1) Can administer Linux? Do you have enough programmers to convert you apps. 3) Can you replace your network infrastructure, away from Active Directory? Can you use existing hardware with linux? Then you will need to train ALL users. Do you have the staff to do so? AND users will want any new programs to work EXCATLY like the old ones. If not, users will complain until hell freezes over. Do you have upper management behind the effort?
If upper management can't get behind this project, it won't get done, no matter what pc/laptop the company buys. Therefore pc manufacturers are going to continue to sell what business needs/wants.
- Thread starter
- #16
wow a lot of replies. Thanks for the links btw!
Going to kinda shot gun some of the replies here.. first, "finding drivers" for their Linux distro. maybe half a days work for an intern. Technically Linux should do that on its own =)
Sure a lot of people, maybe 80% would insist on XP, etc. I'd say most just want cheap as possible mini computer. We all know microsoft went up to dell and said, pirates, oh my God why are you supporting the pirates??
PRP... cost of moving to Linux? That will be $0.00 dollars.
Moving from Linux to windows, min of 200 (if you don't shop smart) All the system admins at my Microsoft shop company also manage Linux.. Linux is King of servers. Convert your aps? our software engineers use VMs... soo... erm.. wait what the frack does all this have to do with me wanting a cheap net-book? A professional engineer will NOT be using a Linux netbook to program on. It does not have the screen size, or power to do any real work. Maybe write a 100-2000 line program..
Going to kinda shot gun some of the replies here.. first, "finding drivers" for their Linux distro. maybe half a days work for an intern. Technically Linux should do that on its own =)
Sure a lot of people, maybe 80% would insist on XP, etc. I'd say most just want cheap as possible mini computer. We all know microsoft went up to dell and said, pirates, oh my God why are you supporting the pirates??
PRP... cost of moving to Linux? That will be $0.00 dollars.
Moving from Linux to windows, min of 200 (if you don't shop smart) All the system admins at my Microsoft shop company also manage Linux.. Linux is King of servers. Convert your aps? our software engineers use VMs... soo... erm.. wait what the frack does all this have to do with me wanting a cheap net-book? A professional engineer will NOT be using a Linux netbook to program on. It does not have the screen size, or power to do any real work. Maybe write a 100-2000 line program..
Achellin,
Not being rude, but either you didn't read the posts, or somehow you just don't understand them.
The costs associated that make Linux more expensive are not the direct OS costs. Also, the training for the IT staff will vary per organization. Many people in IT, particularly in larger organizations, have to focus on one specialized area. The same guys who help with "desktop support" will NOT be the same guys handling the Linux-based or Unix-based or Windows-based servers.
Also, you're not thinking straight on drivers. Sure, any modern OS will "do it by itself" to some extent. However, there are just too many hardware configurations to be able to handle it all. Now, on the coporate end, it could be argued that they'd use much the same or similar hardware, so they may be in an easier situation with hardware drivers in that sense.
User training - if you don't train the day to day users of the system, then you're going to be in for some real pain as a business, and more than likely fail as a business. If the users don't know how to USE the system, then it'll cost more than ANY OS would cost.
Programming - the Programmers are not Linux administrators, sysadmins, or the like. In large corporations, oftentimes, the programmers write programs with the tools available for the systems available in the company. Most of the time, they do NOT program for cross-OS support and the like. It'd be better if they did, but by not worrying about that, they can get more "bang for the buck" by getting the programmers to "get it done" for what the company is using now, or is planning to use in the near future.
In other words, if the OS cost $300 or $400, even per system (which it doesn't - and $200? really? Not when the corporation gets a quantity discount type plan that most get..), it would STILL be cheaper to stick with Windows.
Besides that, most large businesses/corporations will primarily use the same Office software and other apps they've been using. Why? Again, same reasons, just for the applications instead of the app - custom programming, training, etc.
What do people use in Offices? Primarily Microsoft Office, which is available on MS Windows and on Mac OS. They also use Adobe products, in particular Adobe Acrobat.
Sure, you could sue Wine to run some Windows apps, but then you're just adding more possible headaches that no one in the corporate world needs or wants.
It really boils down to this simple fact:
Businesses are in business to make money. If it makes sense (on a large scale, not individual likes) to the business, that it will be help make money rather than just spend money, then that is what the business will choose. That's not to say that businesses don't make mistakes.
Think of it this way: the vast majority of businesses and home users use Windows-based computers. So, if you're a business just starting out, and you go with Linux or even Mac OS, you've got to pay the costs for additional training for anyone you hire, as compared to Windows. With a Windows-based system, all you gotta teach is the specific apps you use. The basic Windows stuff (currently) is known or well adapted to by pretty much anyone.
I do like Linux, myself, but I cannot honestly see a really truly good scenerio for a large organization for all the many reasons already listed by various individuals in this thread.
At tek-tips, it's not about being "fan boys" of a particular manufacturer or product. Rather, it's about getting the job done - whatever it is, whatever it takes. The best answer wins, I'd say, is the main desire of most folks here. It's definitely a part of the idea of being a "professional" forum.
Not being rude, but either you didn't read the posts, or somehow you just don't understand them.
The costs associated that make Linux more expensive are not the direct OS costs. Also, the training for the IT staff will vary per organization. Many people in IT, particularly in larger organizations, have to focus on one specialized area. The same guys who help with "desktop support" will NOT be the same guys handling the Linux-based or Unix-based or Windows-based servers.
Also, you're not thinking straight on drivers. Sure, any modern OS will "do it by itself" to some extent. However, there are just too many hardware configurations to be able to handle it all. Now, on the coporate end, it could be argued that they'd use much the same or similar hardware, so they may be in an easier situation with hardware drivers in that sense.
User training - if you don't train the day to day users of the system, then you're going to be in for some real pain as a business, and more than likely fail as a business. If the users don't know how to USE the system, then it'll cost more than ANY OS would cost.
Programming - the Programmers are not Linux administrators, sysadmins, or the like. In large corporations, oftentimes, the programmers write programs with the tools available for the systems available in the company. Most of the time, they do NOT program for cross-OS support and the like. It'd be better if they did, but by not worrying about that, they can get more "bang for the buck" by getting the programmers to "get it done" for what the company is using now, or is planning to use in the near future.
In other words, if the OS cost $300 or $400, even per system (which it doesn't - and $200? really? Not when the corporation gets a quantity discount type plan that most get..), it would STILL be cheaper to stick with Windows.
Besides that, most large businesses/corporations will primarily use the same Office software and other apps they've been using. Why? Again, same reasons, just for the applications instead of the app - custom programming, training, etc.
What do people use in Offices? Primarily Microsoft Office, which is available on MS Windows and on Mac OS. They also use Adobe products, in particular Adobe Acrobat.
Sure, you could sue Wine to run some Windows apps, but then you're just adding more possible headaches that no one in the corporate world needs or wants.
It really boils down to this simple fact:
Businesses are in business to make money. If it makes sense (on a large scale, not individual likes) to the business, that it will be help make money rather than just spend money, then that is what the business will choose. That's not to say that businesses don't make mistakes.
Think of it this way: the vast majority of businesses and home users use Windows-based computers. So, if you're a business just starting out, and you go with Linux or even Mac OS, you've got to pay the costs for additional training for anyone you hire, as compared to Windows. With a Windows-based system, all you gotta teach is the specific apps you use. The basic Windows stuff (currently) is known or well adapted to by pretty much anyone.
I do like Linux, myself, but I cannot honestly see a really truly good scenerio for a large organization for all the many reasons already listed by various individuals in this thread.
At tek-tips, it's not about being "fan boys" of a particular manufacturer or product. Rather, it's about getting the job done - whatever it is, whatever it takes. The best answer wins, I'd say, is the main desire of most folks here. It's definitely a part of the idea of being a "professional" forum.
I hate to say it, but this thread may be against the tek-tips charter to begin with. Quoting the OP's first post:
This is a personal topic, not a business one (why I mention the charter). In this case, the objective wasn't to get a fleet of machines for users that will be supported by an IT department.
I do understand the economy of scale that may justify the pricing, as a consumer it is still ludicrous to expect that I will pay the same amount of money to NOT get something, as Dell is doing. The problem I have with this is the possibliliy or even perception that hanky-panky may be at use to limit the choice of the users, which I might add got Microsoft into anti-trust court once before.
This is a personal topic, not a business one (why I mention the charter). In this case, the objective wasn't to get a fleet of machines for users that will be supported by an IT department.
I do understand the economy of scale that may justify the pricing, as a consumer it is still ludicrous to expect that I will pay the same amount of money to NOT get something, as Dell is doing. The problem I have with this is the possibliliy or even perception that hanky-panky may be at use to limit the choice of the users, which I might add got Microsoft into anti-trust court once before.
That is a good point. If this were the only thread, it would seem it were a student posting. However, from one of the OP's previous postings, it sounds like he is working in IT. It IS possible for a person to be employed in the IT field, while taking additional classes on the side, after all.
And while if they are taking a class, they are a student, they're not asking for homework help, either.
And while if they are taking a class, they are a student, they're not asking for homework help, either.
Norway.
Good point but it was the OP that changed the content of the thread with his reply.
Title:
1st response.
People responded to this in a rational and responsible manner, pointing out why there is a lack of Linux netbooks on the market and pointing out where the "30%" extra cost is going.
A far better response than.
Robert Wilensky:
We've all heard that a million monkeys banging on a million typewriters will eventually reproduce the entire works of Shakespeare. Now, thanks to the Internet, we know this is not true.
Good point but it was the OP that changed the content of the thread with his reply.
Title:
1st response.
People responded to this in a rational and responsible manner, pointing out why there is a lack of Linux netbooks on the market and pointing out where the "30%" extra cost is going.
A far better response than.
Robert Wilensky:
We've all heard that a million monkeys banging on a million typewriters will eventually reproduce the entire works of Shakespeare. Now, thanks to the Internet, we know this is not true.
- Status
Similar threads
- Locked
- Question
- Locked
- Question
