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What do you guys think about all 2
- Thread starter mmt4331
- Start date
I'd dare say that outsourcing/delocalizing is an issue with ALL multinational corporations, whatever they do. We all know they just play dice every quarter to know which offices will be relocated next quater. More and more and I am wary of these enormous international entities which bully their way into establishing a presence somewhere, demand enormous advantages (like no tax for 10 years), and shut the whole operation down before or just after the advantage period lapses.
In my mind, multinational corporations have only a bad influence on the local area. The cause enormous change, bring loads of employees to move in, pollute and pollute some more, then bugger out leaving most of those people to wonder how they'll pay their mortgage or rent.
I think the true strength of a country's economy is in the small shops, those that cater to the immediate local economy. They are on hand, they have to fight to uphold their reputation, and they generally fight teeth and nails to hold on to what resources they have (i.e. employees) in order to keep up with market demand.
It is time people everywhere started recognizing that dealing with big corporations is a double-edged sword. The utter fiasco in the way HP bought Compaq and then proceeded to scuttle the only valuable asset left in that shell is just another red light warning of the irresponsibility of these high-level managers.
Enron and Vivendi still carry some meaning given the small amount of time that has passed. How many more will it take ?
I suggest we do to those companies as they do to us. Use them, but do not trust them. Stop granting outrageous installation grants and contract clauses. And when things start going south, do not wait and hope that things will get better - they won't, not for the little guys. Instead, do like the HP call center team in Australia - WALK OUT ON THEM. For background, check out this piece on the Inquirer : If enough of us little guys show the bigwigs the hard way that the primary resource is HUMAN EXPERTISE, then one day those poor excuses for managers just might take a hint.
Am I ranting ? Yes. Am I a manager ? Obviously not. Yet, when I see the disaster of Vivendi, and the total muck-up of HP, I take to thinking that I wouldn't have done much worse - even without the PhD.
Seems that treating humans with respect IS rocket science after all.
In my mind, multinational corporations have only a bad influence on the local area. The cause enormous change, bring loads of employees to move in, pollute and pollute some more, then bugger out leaving most of those people to wonder how they'll pay their mortgage or rent.
I think the true strength of a country's economy is in the small shops, those that cater to the immediate local economy. They are on hand, they have to fight to uphold their reputation, and they generally fight teeth and nails to hold on to what resources they have (i.e. employees) in order to keep up with market demand.
It is time people everywhere started recognizing that dealing with big corporations is a double-edged sword. The utter fiasco in the way HP bought Compaq and then proceeded to scuttle the only valuable asset left in that shell is just another red light warning of the irresponsibility of these high-level managers.
Enron and Vivendi still carry some meaning given the small amount of time that has passed. How many more will it take ?
I suggest we do to those companies as they do to us. Use them, but do not trust them. Stop granting outrageous installation grants and contract clauses. And when things start going south, do not wait and hope that things will get better - they won't, not for the little guys. Instead, do like the HP call center team in Australia - WALK OUT ON THEM. For background, check out this piece on the Inquirer : If enough of us little guys show the bigwigs the hard way that the primary resource is HUMAN EXPERTISE, then one day those poor excuses for managers just might take a hint.
Am I ranting ? Yes. Am I a manager ? Obviously not. Yet, when I see the disaster of Vivendi, and the total muck-up of HP, I take to thinking that I wouldn't have done much worse - even without the PhD.
Seems that treating humans with respect IS rocket science after all.
TrmblingBluStar
MIS
^
HP is a world class example of why outsourcing is a bad thing. If HP is doing it, it must be a bad thing.
My bitterness against HP originated long before they ever dreamed of purchasing Compaq. Back in 1996 I purchased my first, and only HP DeskJet printer for nearly $250 - which was a reasonable price back then for an ink jet printer. The printer worked perfectly for the entire year it was covered under warranty. After that, I noticed ink smearing across everything it printed. I took the printer apart several times, cleaned it, changed the cartridges - none of which alleviated the smearing problems. Since, I have talked to several friends whose DeskJet’s malfunctioned in the exact same way.
In a final spiteful gesture to the consumer, HP not only doesn't have drivers for my printer that work with Window's XP, you now cannot download their drivers from the Internet. You must pay HP $10 for a CD of drivers to be mailed to you.
Sorry this is off topic. I just had to vent my HP frustrations.
HP is a world class example of why outsourcing is a bad thing. If HP is doing it, it must be a bad thing.
My bitterness against HP originated long before they ever dreamed of purchasing Compaq. Back in 1996 I purchased my first, and only HP DeskJet printer for nearly $250 - which was a reasonable price back then for an ink jet printer. The printer worked perfectly for the entire year it was covered under warranty. After that, I noticed ink smearing across everything it printed. I took the printer apart several times, cleaned it, changed the cartridges - none of which alleviated the smearing problems. Since, I have talked to several friends whose DeskJet’s malfunctioned in the exact same way.
In a final spiteful gesture to the consumer, HP not only doesn't have drivers for my printer that work with Window's XP, you now cannot download their drivers from the Internet. You must pay HP $10 for a CD of drivers to be mailed to you.
Sorry this is off topic. I just had to vent my HP frustrations.
HP does stink.
I've had good luck with their printers, but I have to fill my own cartridges if I'm going to do any serious work, otherwise it costs too much.
Their computers suck.
I bought three of them over the course of ten years...against my better judgment every time...and ended up taking them back within a week.
HP is one of those companies that spends more on image than they do on substance.
-----
The death of dogma is the birth of reason.
I've had good luck with their printers, but I have to fill my own cartridges if I'm going to do any serious work, otherwise it costs too much.
Their computers suck.
I bought three of them over the course of ten years...against my better judgment every time...and ended up taking them back within a week.
HP is one of those companies that spends more on image than they do on substance.
-----
The death of dogma is the birth of reason.
It sometimes amazes me to watch you folks in the 'rant' forums (as opposed to the 'technical forums') keep on and on about exporting jobs.
Wake up and smell the coffee! That's what international forums are all about! Every time we answer tech questions we are exporting knowledge (and thus jobs). That is how it is supposed to be. The fact that this site is hosted in the US doesn't mean that only Americans can read it. Having been a regular poster in the techie type forums for over 2 years I guess that at least half of the members are from the rest of the world.
I recognise that every time that I help an US programmer, I'm exporting a little bit of my (UK) job. BUT it's a two-way street, and the world is a small place.
Putting up trade tariffs to support local jobs (wherever LOCAL happens to be for you) is always a very short term measure, and market forces will always overcome tariffs. Look at the steel trade in the US over the past 10 years - ever increasing tariffs against Europe and still no change. The same happened to the textile trade in the UK 50 years ago. The same will happen to any market-busting tariff schemes.
The Global economy wasn't invented yesterday - it's been the backbone of all empires for at least 5000 years, and it ebbs and flows like the tide - but the long term view always shows upward growth. Each empire will run it's course and then subside. The 19th and early 20th century was all about Europe, the late 20th was all about the US. The 21st will be all about the Middle East (at least until technology overcomes the reliance on oil)
In IT there are very few jobs beyond the 'unplug and swap' level that can't be performed anywhere in the world equally well. Those that can do this biz will continue to learn and grow - those that are struggling will fail as competitors from "over there" take over.
Just remember that "over there" is now a bit bigger. A hundred years ago it was the next town - now it's the next continent! Think of the opportunities for YOU to sell YOUR services in the global market - it's all getting better every minute!
Wake up and smell the coffee! That's what international forums are all about! Every time we answer tech questions we are exporting knowledge (and thus jobs). That is how it is supposed to be. The fact that this site is hosted in the US doesn't mean that only Americans can read it. Having been a regular poster in the techie type forums for over 2 years I guess that at least half of the members are from the rest of the world.
I recognise that every time that I help an US programmer, I'm exporting a little bit of my (UK) job. BUT it's a two-way street, and the world is a small place.
Putting up trade tariffs to support local jobs (wherever LOCAL happens to be for you) is always a very short term measure, and market forces will always overcome tariffs. Look at the steel trade in the US over the past 10 years - ever increasing tariffs against Europe and still no change. The same happened to the textile trade in the UK 50 years ago. The same will happen to any market-busting tariff schemes.
The Global economy wasn't invented yesterday - it's been the backbone of all empires for at least 5000 years, and it ebbs and flows like the tide - but the long term view always shows upward growth. Each empire will run it's course and then subside. The 19th and early 20th century was all about Europe, the late 20th was all about the US. The 21st will be all about the Middle East (at least until technology overcomes the reliance on oil)
In IT there are very few jobs beyond the 'unplug and swap' level that can't be performed anywhere in the world equally well. Those that can do this biz will continue to learn and grow - those that are struggling will fail as competitors from "over there" take over.
Just remember that "over there" is now a bit bigger. A hundred years ago it was the next town - now it's the next continent! Think of the opportunities for YOU to sell YOUR services in the global market - it's all getting better every minute!
TrmblingBluStar
MIS
I actually find johnwm's attitude refreshing, if premature. We don't know how this will all turn out. I generally don't believe the naysayers who predict that we are headed towards a dystopian future where there will only be rich and poor, with no middle class.
I'd also like to think that there are many kinds of IT jobs, like system engineer, or database engineer that will always exist within the US. I doubt that we'll be shipping all of our computer technology to other countries. Granted, the competition for these jobs will be higher, but not everybody can do these type of jobs.
Also, if the middle class is severly effected by this, they can and will exert enormous political pressure on our leaders to change the situation. Right now, the attitude of most people is either one of ignorance, or apathy. They either don't know a problem exists, or they don't care because it has yet to affect them.
The ultimate solution is to diversify your skills. A person who can adapt his/her skills to any situation will always be better off.
Now, if I could only find a job.
I'd also like to think that there are many kinds of IT jobs, like system engineer, or database engineer that will always exist within the US. I doubt that we'll be shipping all of our computer technology to other countries. Granted, the competition for these jobs will be higher, but not everybody can do these type of jobs.
Also, if the middle class is severly effected by this, they can and will exert enormous political pressure on our leaders to change the situation. Right now, the attitude of most people is either one of ignorance, or apathy. They either don't know a problem exists, or they don't care because it has yet to affect them.
The ultimate solution is to diversify your skills. A person who can adapt his/her skills to any situation will always be better off.
Now, if I could only find a job.
I have no problem with some types of development being sent offshore IF the people can do the work. I'm not saying everyone in india or other countries work is being sent to can't do the work, but my personal experience has left a lot to be desired, mainly because of the technology area I work in.
I do however support placing extreme limitations on the handing out of Visas that allow companies to bring people in to do work or bring them in to be trained by those who they will replace (this is becomming a common practice).
If you hire a person or persons for offshore development why should they be any less qualified than the person or people they are replacing. I find it insulting for a company to expect someone to train their replacements. Yes people are not forced to but when faced with the choice of Leave now and have no severance package or stay and get some severance package, in todays economy and job market the choice really isn't a choice.
I also feel one of the reasons Americans are more vocal about this is the lack of protection or coverage given by our government. Many other countries (Canada, UK and probably a good number of other European Countries) have socialized medical systems. Having lost 2 jobs in the past I can honestly say I wasn't concerned as much about the money as I was my ability to take care of my family. Getting sick in the U.S. is extrememely expensive even more so without any Medical coverage. Also from what I have read the U.S. also has a much stricter and inadequate welfare system. Unemployment is a state level aid and not a National system making the the Unemployment benefits substandard, in my home state you can get a max of $300 a week for something like 12 weeks. If the U.S. Government protected it's citizens the way many other countries do the outcry and concern from U.S. workers would probably be less.
"Shoot Me! Shoot Me NOW!!!"
- Daffy Duck
I do however support placing extreme limitations on the handing out of Visas that allow companies to bring people in to do work or bring them in to be trained by those who they will replace (this is becomming a common practice).
If you hire a person or persons for offshore development why should they be any less qualified than the person or people they are replacing. I find it insulting for a company to expect someone to train their replacements. Yes people are not forced to but when faced with the choice of Leave now and have no severance package or stay and get some severance package, in todays economy and job market the choice really isn't a choice.
I also feel one of the reasons Americans are more vocal about this is the lack of protection or coverage given by our government. Many other countries (Canada, UK and probably a good number of other European Countries) have socialized medical systems. Having lost 2 jobs in the past I can honestly say I wasn't concerned as much about the money as I was my ability to take care of my family. Getting sick in the U.S. is extrememely expensive even more so without any Medical coverage. Also from what I have read the U.S. also has a much stricter and inadequate welfare system. Unemployment is a state level aid and not a National system making the the Unemployment benefits substandard, in my home state you can get a max of $300 a week for something like 12 weeks. If the U.S. Government protected it's citizens the way many other countries do the outcry and concern from U.S. workers would probably be less.
"Shoot Me! Shoot Me NOW!!!"
- Daffy Duck
TrmblingBluStar
MIS
MDXer, you make quite a few good points. Ultimately, it's up to the people to let the government know their concerns. I feel the level of political and corporate coruption in the US has reached an almost ridiculous level, and I fear our country will be gutted so that a few already rich CEO's will become richer.
Not to turn this into a political discussion, but hopefully within the next few years our country will find leadership that is concerned enough about us to take action.
Not to turn this into a political discussion, but hopefully within the next few years our country will find leadership that is concerned enough about us to take action.
I posted this link in another thread.
Also one of the Reps from Colorado is proposing a bill for the H1-B visa status.
This doesn't stop the export of jobs, which like I said I have no problem with. However it does make it more difficult to import workers.
"Shoot Me! Shoot Me NOW!!!"
- Daffy Duck
Also one of the Reps from Colorado is proposing a bill for the H1-B visa status.
This doesn't stop the export of jobs, which like I said I have no problem with. However it does make it more difficult to import workers.
"Shoot Me! Shoot Me NOW!!!"
- Daffy Duck
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