Strange convoluted problem. Need help! 2

[YST]

I sure hope someone can help me out here. I have started a new job and taken over someone else’s problem.

Run down:
This company has a Windows 2000 image that they use for machines they send out to their clients. They now want that image (used on old Dell boxes) to work on new HP machines without having to redo the image from scratch. Not the way I would choose to do it but the way it IS going to be done apparently.

My predecessor did a windows backup on the old Dell pc and then did a restore from that backup to a freshly installed version of Win2k on the new HP machine. This allowed them to keep the old image but effectively run it on the new hardware.

Now this is where I come in. The system appeared to work properly but we are having a lot of issues with user accounts.

The machines basically have an administrator account for us to configure them for the client sites. They also have a user account for the clients to log on with that only allows them to access the internet.

Here is the problem:
- Administrator account works fine.
- From a cold boot the user account does not work fine, symptoms are:
- Web pages won't load or only half load.
- Windows help does not load properly. It will open the help box but you cannot click on a topic and have it displayed - just a blank screen
- If you logoff the administrator account and logon the user account the system works as normal - web pages load fully and windows help runs perfectly.

Weird huh!

things I have tried:
- Made new accounts:
- User - not working as intended
- Power User - not working as intended
- Administrator - works fine
- Gone through the settings with 2 other working installations of Win2K and they all match:
- Security Policies
- PC User rights assignment
- Services
- Account Policies
- Internet Security options

This error is coming up on each startup of the machine in the event log, as it happened to the administrator account as well I don't think it is causing the problem.
Event Type: Warning
Event Source: WinMgmt
Event Category: None
Event ID: 41
Date: 4/29/2004
Time: 2:21:28 PM
User: N/A
Computer: OBCIB00001
Description:
WMI ADAP was unable to create object index 1848 for Performance Library RSVP because no value was found in the 009 subkey


Any help would be greatly appreciated as this has me stumped!

 

[Crazyfitz]

This is a tough one. Have you tried to give the user account Administrator rights and see if it worked as expected after a cold boot? (It reads as if you have tried that but I wanted to make sure)

A back up and restore process is not intended to be the same as an imaging process. You may be seeing the result of restoring Dell software on a HP Hardware, much like taking a hard drive out of one machine and putting in another. Sometimes it works ok...Sometimes it doesn't work at all... Sometimes it works, sorta.

Personally, I would explain to management that I could set up RIS on a server (no software cost to management) and create a new image an HP Machine in less time than it is taking to solve this problem.

George
MCSA +Messaging (Win2k) A+, Net +

 

[YST]

Thanks for taking the time to read and reply Crazyfitz.

Tried giving the user account admin rights and everything work as required but we can't leave it that way unfortunately. From these machines the user is only allowed internet access - everything else is locked.

Creating another image for the HP machines from scatch would definetely be the best solution but they want to keep using the old image. Basically another department made the original image and my department wants to be able to point the finger at them if there is a problem with the machines. I like fixing computers, NOT office politics!

 

[bcastner]

Well, you could tell them what they did is in violation of your Microsoft EULA.

 

[Crazyfitz]

Soo...It does appear to be a rights issue. With all the locking down going on, is it possible that permissions to the winnt folder for "Everyone" group been removed?

George
MCSA +Messaging (Win2k) A+, Net +

 

[bcastner]

No, it is a SID issue. Look closely to what was said:

"is company has a Windows 2000 image that they use for machines they send out to their clients."

This is not in-house, this is a client image, and the image was used previously for the same clients.

An IT consulting/VAR that is stupid enough to insist on using an image from a substantially different hardware configured machine on new machines is bad enough; that there is no way in heck that this is legal is bad enough; but to ignore SID issues for past imaged workstations on client sites, in all likeliehood Worgroups, exceeds all reasonable bounds of legal, ethical and practical sense.

YST, find another job.

But I will be darned if I am going to tell you how to work around this problem.

 

[helliphikneau]

bcastner,

take bow and a star.....

 

[Moonspell]

Where do you get the 'legal' bit bcastner? If the site the pcs are going to has a w2k license for each machine then what's the problem using cloned pcs???? I used to work on a site that used cloning, however when dealing with ibm pcs we had 6 different images cause there were so many varying h/w configs in the SAME model of ibm (300gl). I agree that the SID could cause a prob but there are ways around that!

 

[bcastner]

. An OEM license, as is being used here, does not permit its disk imaging. It is bound to the hardware device it is sold with and no other permitted use is granted.

. For Corporate licenses, a disk image is permitted, provided that the image is created at a point in the setup prior to setup entering real mode; and that Sysprep is used to seal the image being distributed; and that no third-party tools are used to modify the SIDs:

http://www.microsoft.com/technet/tr...rodtechnol/ntwrkstn/deploy/depopt/cloning.asp

 

[Moonspell]

not wishing to appear pedantic but where does it state these are oem licenses?
fair enough to all you say bc but i think you are the 1st person i have heard actually seeming to care about it ( i assume you work for microsoft? ) personally i have not created a clone disk except for backing up my own pc and that is only for restoring my pc in case of failure.

 

[bcastner]

A Dell license is an OEM license.

No, I do not work for Microsoft.

 

[Moonspell]

*sorry* the microsoft reference was possibly a little below the belt!! mind you, one place i worked bought only dells and they bought a full copy of windows with each one so in effect having 2 licenses for each machine. the machines arrived with w2k installed and then had w2k installed on them from a clone (we had something like 200 boxed sets of w2k pro stored in a room)

 

[bcastner]

Moonspell,

No problem. I just feel badly for the original poster, YST, as this is a very uncomfortable position in which he has been placed. He has valid technical, practical and legal reasons for changing the imaging procedure in place at his shop, but is ignored yet is supposed to support these workstations.

Yikes.

 

[Moonspell]

yikes indeed. mind you, i have yet to work somewhere that does not have a few infractions on the eula. still we do better than some countries........

 

[YST]

I guess I could add a little more clarification to the issue. Not sure how this affects the legal arguments.

They are gov computers that are loaned to other gov departments to use until they break them and send them back. It is still this departments hardware. I suppose they have some kind of open license with MS to be able to do this.

bcastner: is there a solution to this problem? You don't have to tell me if you believe what they are doing is illegal, I am going to ask my boss about the legality of what they are doing anyway. I'll let you know what he says.

 

[ReddLefty]

OMG, it's for a government on top of that? I don't wanna know which one... I might live in that country... I just hope it's not the tax return departments ..... mind you, that would explain a few things...

Bcastner has my full support on this, what I can answer, is WHY Moonspell's company bought 2 sets of licenses.

Dell computers come with OEM licenses. There is no way around this with Dell. The problem with buying OEM licenses is that they are not "upgradable" to the next O/S. When buying the retail version, you can get Software Assurance that you pay Microsoft to get the latest and greatest version (at about 1/3 the cost of the software per year. If you buy a Dell with Win2K and buy a seperate retail W2K with Software Assurance, you can then upgrade to XP at no cost and it will be legal. Basically, you scrap the OEM version and install the retail one. What are the advantages to this? It all depends on your corporate strategy... If you plan to replace your O/S every 3 years instead of following them, then it may be cheaper than having Software Assurance.

Licensing is legal stuff, and of course, is complicated. In fact, I'm almost considering of opening a licensing brokerage firm for small companies.... so many places waste money when they buy them, and so many of them don't even know what is wrong or right....



"In space, nobody can hear you click..."

 

[ReddLefty]

Let me just clear up that the cost is 1/3 per year ON TOP of the retail cost.

Example:
100$ = License
100 + 33= 133$ = License + 1 Year SA
100 + 66= 166$ = License + 2 Years SA
100 + 99= 199$ = License + 3 Years SA

It varies per product, but it's a good baseline for ballpark figures.







"In space, nobody can hear you click..."

 

[bcastner]

YST,

If I understand your situation correctly, your primary responsibility is to re-image machines that come back as non-functional for whatever reason.

Since this is not a situation of rolling out hundred/thousands/tens of thousands of identical machines, I would without question create a very good unattended install CD.

This unattended install would use all the deployment tools available to me: sysprep, sysdiff/snap, sysdif/inf, and two additional resources supported by Microsoft:

. The ability to pre-install entire suites of Software (e.g., Microsoft Office) due to their being .msi packages already.

An excellent resource for pre-installing Hotfixes, Service Packs, new OEM hardware drivers, and MSI packages can be found here:

http://www.msfn.org/unattended/xp/index.htm

This site is XP-focused, but nearly all of the advice applies to an unattended Win2k intallation as well.

. For non-MSI based packages, use the MS recommended freeware packager:

http://www.wininstall.com/FREELE2003/

Advantages:
. It is perfectly legal and the MS-recommended solution
. There are no SID issues, and an automatic join to a Domain can be done.
. It assumes nothing about the base hardware of the computer that is the target
. It avoids any authentication problems with MS suites
. It is easily modified as new Hotfixes, etc. appear

Disadvantages:
. It is slightly slower than a clone re-image

If I had new, absolutely identical machines, I would use RIS, or an SMS server if available, or a third-party imaging tool, but would adhere to the EULA requirements:

http://www.microsoft.com/technet/tr...rodtechnol/ntwrkstn/deploy/depopt/cloning.asp

But for maintenance, or a day-to-day chore of re-imaging, I would use an unattended install approach. I would spend two solid days creating a rock-solid unattended install CD using the tools and web-sites I linked earlier. It would have updated hardware drivers, all Hotfixes, all Service packs, all software that is part of the standard workstation distribution at my site.

You will live longer, be happier, and the process is in fact simpler and faster in the end.

Best,
Bill Castner

 

[YST]

Thanks for the help Bill, I'll check out those sites and see what I can do.

 

[bcastner]

YST,

I hope the above helps. You can bell this cat, and enjoy your weekends.

If you have an specific problems with this as a solution ask here, or the absolutely terrific Forum for unattended installations:

http://board.msfn.org/

Membership in the Forums is free, and usually you will get two or three different ways to approach any problem.

Best,
Bill Castner