Semiotics and Mathematics

[CajunCenturion]

Are semiotics and mathematics related? If you think yes, please explain why. If not, please explain.

 

[ZoomerZ]

Yeah, sure...if language is a science as a math then YES

 

[Stella740pl]

Of course they are.

As a matter of fact, mathematics is related to many, maybe even all sciences and many arts. Musical theory, harmony in particular, is very mathematical and nearly precise science.

Closer to our topic,

according to dictionary.com

(

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=semiotics)

se·mi·ot·ics is also se·mei·ot·ics
n. (used with a sing. verb)
The theory and study of signs and symbols, especially as elements of language or other systems of communication, and comprising semantics, syntactics, and pragmatics.

(

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=mathematics)

math·e·mat·ics
n. (used with a sing. verb)
The study of the measurement, properties, and relationships of quantities and sets, using numbers and symbols.

As you can see even from the definition, semiotics is a study of signs and symbols as elements of … systems of communication, and mathematics is a study that uses systems of communication consisting of signs and symbols.

Moreover, there is a science called “Applied and Structural Linguistics” that some universities offer in their departments of Applied Mathematics and Computer Sciences (and some, probably, with other linguistics).

 

[ZoomerZ]

I suspect CajunC wants more then just naked facts...something more creative (if it is not a NY prank):-D

 

[Stella740pl]

...something more creative

So come up with it. I started some motion here, I guess. So it's your turn now.

 

[ZoomerZ]

I've turned already
I gave all I had now I will sit back and enjoy the ride:-D

 

[columb]

I'd have to disagree. In semiotics the symbol<->meaning relationship is everything. I maths, as long as we agree on what the signs and symbols mean then which ones we use is immaterial.

As an example, if I were to write a maths book where the symbol + implied multiplication then, as long as I explained this at the begining, it would not affect the maths at all. In semiotic terms it's an emormous change.

By the way, without wishing to go off topic, why do we Brits use maths while Americans use math? Is the full name mathematic or mathematics? I'm sure this will have been covered so maybe someone can give me a thread number.

Columb Healy

 

[ZoomerZ]

Columb,
it was a very interesting thought, can you recommend reading about semiotics?

 

[Stella740pl]

You disagree with what? With the statement that they are related? With the way they are related? Something else? I didn't say it's one and the same, and that they use the symbols in the same way I didn't say also.

Anyway, don't have much time to argue on the main subject now (but probably would a few days later, don't know yet).

 

[SQLSister]

Well to throw myself in the discussion, everything is related to math. Sometimes we don't see the relationship, but math seems to be the basis of the universe. A painting can be reduced to a math equation as can relationships. (Consider Newtonian physics and how they relate to human realtionships, i.e. for every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction, yep relationships are physics and physics is math.)

And even in the study of symbols, you could change the definitions of the symbols just as you do with number theory, but the meaning inherent in the definition would not change merely the way it was represented.

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[Stella740pl]

SQLSister, I agree with you.
Everything is related to math.
(Well, may be almost everything, I don't know. )

 

[CajunCenturion]

Perhaps a discussion of the relationship between mathematics and emotions might be fun, "for every action, there is an equal and opposite over-reaction", but we'll save that for a rainy day.

I hope that no one disputes the breadth of mathematical relationships.

And even in the study of symbols, you could change the definitions of the symbols just as you do with number theory, but the meaning inherent in the definition would not change merely the way it was represented.

Isn't a word just a symbol, or semiotically speaking, a sign? In recent discussions, 'artiste' and 'verbiage' are two different signs. In semiotics, you have three basic elements, the representant, the interpreter, and a context. For example, consider the following statement. X = A + B What does that expression mean?

How does this play into understanding the relationship between mathematics and semiotics?

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[RodKnowlton]

Well to throw myself in the discussion, everything is related to math. Sometimes we don't see the relationship, but math seems to be the basis of the universe. A painting can be reduced to a math equation as can relationships. (Consider Newtonian physics and how they relate to human realtionships, i.e. for every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction, yep relationships are physics and physics is math.)

Your examples don't have the quality "based on math" so much as "able to be described with math". Math is a language. A remarkably concise language that seems to be able to describe the universe in the most precise terms to date, but still a language.

A painting can also be reduced to an English description (common wisdom would say 1000 words ). That doesn't mean the painting is based on English. One might argue that the hypothetical math equation describing the painting has a higher fidelity than the English description, but if fidelity is the measure, then the painting (as the single most accurate descripttion of itself) is the basis for itself.

Oh, and I agree that Semiotics and Mathematics are related, for certain values of "related".


- Rod

 

[MakeItSo]

I'll have a try too:
First of all: I had to look up the term semiotics first.
So, semiotics is about the interpretation of signs and their mutual relationship.
Well then I'd say: Yes and no!

Yes, they are related: You can define a set of symbols, let's call them "numbers" and define certain operations on them, e.g. "addition", which, when applied, lead you to other symbols (numbers) in this set.
Then, mathematics contains symbols (numbers and operators) which can in return be interpreted, dependent on the used number base. This set can also be extended, if necessary. This happened, when the 0 was introduced, then the negative numbers, finally complex numbers...
So: everyday calculating can be seen as an interpretation of symbols and thus application of semiotics.

No, they are not related: Semiotics is a sort of science. Although there are many symbols to be interpreted or maybe invented, it seems to have a rather rigid frame of action.
Mathematics in the contrast is rather a principle, that goes far beyond symbolism. (At least that's how I see it). It is much more unformulated. I have no idea, how my brain works. But I'm quite sure that it doesn't use numbers to do the calculations necessary for its functioning. I believe it rather uses sort of "fuzzy maths".

I'd say, mathematics is the foundation of all science and that includes semiotics of course. So there is a relationship, but only as a one-way street with maths as the originating point.

P.S: Concerning bad grammar: do you say maths is or are?

Bless you all and merry Christmas!


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