More anti-offshoring backlash 19

[dgillz]

Nows its the State of Indiana against Indian offshore contracts:

http://zdnet.com.com/2100-1104_2-5111987.html

Software Sales, Training, Implementation and Support for Exact Macola, eSynergy, and Crystal Reports

http://www.trianglepartners.com

 

[pmonett]

johnwm, thank you for your attempts to widen the horizons. However, I feel necessary to point out that your social skills may be in need of a bit of improvement.

Would you have said that unemployement is to be viewed as an opportunity to review one's skill set, determine areas that are lacking and improve on them, nobody could have taken any exception and your statement could only have brought positive remarks.

What you did say is that the unemployed should "off their tails, cut their unrealistic expectations and get competitive in the REAL world", and that "compaining about the unfairness of it all is as pointless as complaining about the weather".
As far as enlightment is concerned, I've known better ways to put my point across.

How what you said has been percieved by me (and I feel I am not alone) is that you judge unemployed people as lazy bums who should either shape up, get on their feet and do something, or move to a country where governments are willing to spoon-feed couch potatoes.

I'm sorry, but the fact that there is no insult intended does not cover the fact that insult is indeed implied. Being told that when I'm unemployed I'm just a lazy bum is not going to enlighten me.

Pascal.

 

[johnwm]

pmonett
Now you have descended to the realms of personal insult, I know that nothing I can offer by way of help, encouragement or gentle goading will contribute further to this debate.



________________________________________________________________
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[pmonett]

johnwm,

It is obvious that we have a misunderstanding here. You claim to have offered a widening of views, I claim that you worded your thoughts in a different way.

I pointed out precisely the differences I percieve between what you may have wanted to say, what you actually wrote, and how what you wrote was percieved.

Instead of telling me that I am the one insulting you, I would rather have had you acknowledge that you could have worded your thoughts differently.

Pascal.

 

[Murgle]

>>As a famous UK politician once said "If there is no work around, get on your bike and look for it!"

Argh, Norman Tebbit rears his ugly head again - it was easy enough for Norman to say this, given that he had a steady, well paid job in a time of record unemployment. This was the government that added 2 million to the unemployment figures within the space of a parliament - they then encouraged the masses to start up their own small businesses, which then went into bankrupcy at a record rate, as there was no market for their product/service.

I am glad that you have the skills and business savvy required to make your own company a success, but it is certainly true that despite their best efforts, many people find it incredibly difficult to throw off the shackles of unemployment. It doesn't help when the government, who allegedly are supposed to have the interests of it's own citizens at heart, appear to be kicking you in the teeth.

Ahhhhh, I see you have a machine that goes Bing!

 

[AnanthaP]

The cancelled contracted was initially awarded to TCS-America - a subsidiary of TCS (the biggest Indian software company).

Form the US perspective, this isn't an odd-shore development job. TCS-America pays taxes in USA.

Sure, depending on the charter of TCS-America a certain percentage of the revenues could possibly be repartriated to India. Thats the only thing.

The reverse happens often. So why are you worried.

The point is whether the state of Indiana lost out? Time will tell whether they actually end up paying more. How good and consistent will the intgration be? Who will own the solution?

Will the software be equally functional? Given the life of most platforms I don't doubt the functionality.

AnanthaP from India.
End

 

[bi]

From a dollars and cents point of view, I see a problem with the programming being done off-shore. I suppose there is some economic formula you could apply to quantify the real loss to the state of Indiana.

While it's nice that the company is a US subsidiary of an off-shore company and that US subsidiary pays taxes in the US, US programmers aren't being paid to do the work, they are collecting unemployment, (perhaps -- if their eligibility hasn't run out) adding to the burden on the state's taxpayers, they don't have extra money to spend (reducing the amount of sales tax revenue for the state), the amount of income taxes (state and federal) those unemployed programmers pay is drastically reduced, and because they aren't buying anything but the necessities, demand for other employees' goods and services also is reduced. And the spiral goes on.

From a political point of view: a bonehead move on the part of the state unemployment office that you can be sure will be brought up when the current governor and labor commissioner of Indiana are up for re-election.

 

[AnanthaP]

TCS-America does indeed do all work in the USA. I would also think that the proportion of US employees employed by TCS-America is about the same as the industry average (Another thread here?). So in USA, it is an ON-SHORE company.

Likewise for all direct and indirect taxes (sales tax on goods bought ..) incurred by the US and US based employees.

Anyway, the Government of the State of Indiana has made up it's mind and all the best to them.

As bi says, a bonehead move particularly if any cronyism is discovered later on. (YATH=Yet another thread here).

AnanthaP from India.

 

[CosmoKramer]

Here's Big Blue continuing the trend.....

http://www.cnn.com/2003/TECH/biztech/12/15/ibm.offshoring.ap/index.html

Hoc nomen meum verum non est.

 

[Tarwn]

Interesting article...how ethical is it for a reporter to write an article using another article as their primary source?

I would think this would fall into the copy of a copy scenario (signal to noise ratio?)

-T

_{01000111 01101111 01110100 00100000 01000011 01101111 01100110 01100110 01100101 01100101 00111111}
The never-completed website:

http://www.tiernok.com/

 

[bi]

As long as it's sourced (in this case, it is in the second paragraph) there is nothing wrong or unethical about this. It's done all the time. In fact, I'll bet the WSJ has at one time or another cited something CNN got exclusively. But we're getting off topic.

 

[Onyxpurr]

Often, the American workers being replaced are called upon to train their overseas replacements.

Translation: Way to kick 'em when their down huh? The sad part is although you'd love to tell them where to put it, you need the $$ so stay on. Ouch!

 

[SemperFiDownUnda]

If you have skills in areas that your local area doesn't need you need to do 1 of 2 things.
Move or reskill.

Staying unemployed for a year is not excusable in most cases. The fact is that most/many people can get jobs they just feel they are beneath them. I'll flip burgers in maccas if I have too (nothing wrong with that job if its your job). I've had friends out of work for more than a year too. I told them to get off their high horse and get a interium job until they find something more suitable. Unemployment benifits should be short term help (few months tops) for the majority of people to help them get through.

I use this analogy in contexts where there is work. Obviously this doesn't mean much when you have no means do anything....but if you have a computer and are looking at this you are not one of those people.

If you get offended by someone saying you don't try hard enough to get a job .... sorry. I don't know anyone that puts in 40 hours a week looking for a job and I think if you are getting unemployment benifits that 40 hours a week should be spent looking for a job or skilling up for a job.

As far as the topic. I find it ammusing and annoying about help desk/development/etc being sent offshore to places like india. If they have the infrastructure to support development from India I say good on them .... sure they compete with me but hey thats life. I have to make myself more marketable or shift my skill set to something they can't provide effectively. I can tell you from personal experience I hate offshore help desks. Nothing agianst Indian people but the fact that its a struggle to understand them when talking to them on the phone makes the service useless. Not racest....you could be french or even Scottish or English with a heavy accent and I'd get just as annoyed if I had to ask you to repeat every thing you said 5 times (I'm not joking...my ISP outsourced their help desk).

 

[MasterRacker]

One thing that never gets addressed about being out of work for long periods of time is the mechanics of unemployment benefits. You get about half your previous salary (up to a certain cap). That can still be a decent amount of money to survive on for a while. The kicker is when you take make-work. In my state, if you take a low paying but full-time job, you lose benefits completley, even if the job pays less than the benefits. Also, you could forfeit any remaining benefits because you were willing to take a job outside your field. It's almost like the system is designed to keep people out of work. I don't know if it's like that in other states, but it's definitely a factor to consider.


Jeff
The future is already here - it's just not widely distributed yet...

 

[Onyxpurr]

I didn't get half of my salary. I got $200 a week and that was the cap. And if I worked at McDs for 40 hours at $5.50 an hour I would get about $176 a week (including taxes). That will not pay for my insurance ($300 a month while unemployed), rent ($700 a month - for apt, not house), possible car payment ($250 a month), auto ins ($90 a month), then we have utilities, phone, groceries, gas or bus fare, etc. And I'm being extremely conservative. What about people who have credit, house payment, kids, etc...

Unemployment is nice (better than nothing), but it doesn't pay the bills.

If you have skills in areas that your local area doesn't need you need to do 1 of 2 things.
Move or reskill.[\i]

I won't even go into moving costs or reskilling costs or even a simple reality check on what this all involves.

 

[MasterRacker]

[red]Unemployment is nice (better than nothing), but it doesn't pay the bills.[/red]

My point was, that in my state, you cannot add inclome to unemployment. Anymoney you make on the side is subtracted from the unemployment.


Jeff
The future is already here - it's just not widely distributed yet...

 

[lespaul]

And let's not forget that you have to pay income tax on it too!

 

[Onyxpurr]

MasterRacker - yeah, mine neither.

Now I know pretty much all of us here would rather work and get at least some decent pay rather than live off of unemployement, but it almost feels like "why bother?" (with unemployment).

 

[SemperFiDownUnda]

I didn't say it would be easy. There are a lot of benifit you can utilise while unemployed in most areas.

When I lived in Hawaii I was advised that when I moved back to boston I could claim unemployement benifits for a period of time, as long as I was not actually employed, while living in boston. You'd be surprised how much help is out there.

Many of us complain about how some people rott the system. Many of those people are just using the system to its fullest. We might not like paying for them but they are doing the same thing that many very rich people that pay little taxes do....they know the loop holes and exploit them to their advantage.

I agree that moving can cost money and all but the thing is sometimes you have to give something up to be able to move forward. Our country (I live in Australia but I'm still American) is full of families that where poor somewhere else in the world and still managed to get here and make a great life. Saying "Its to hard" to me to often means "I'm to Lazy"

Agian I say how many people do you know that are out of work that actually work close to 40 hours a week trying to find work. The excuse of "A minimum wage job doesn't pay my bills and I can make more money out of work" doesn't wash with me. If you are living beyond your means you should relook at how you live. I personally keep enough savings to keep me going in my current life style for 3 months. Meaning if I'm out of work I can cut back, still live comfortably for a lot longer than that.

I did this by making a decision I didn't want to live pay check to paycheck and cut back on stuff I didn't need until I was happy with my savings. I go out with friends and instead of spending $200 or more buying drinks for me and others I would go out and spend $10. I personally don't buy anything on credit and vow not to buy anything on credit besides a house.

Its all about the sacrifices we are willing to make. I'm not saying get rid of unemployement benifits. I'm saying if you find yourself in a rut get yourself out of it. You don't have to do it alone there are programs out there to help you but you have do make an effort.

You don't have to agree with me nor I with you. These are just my views.

Note: I recognise that there are certian situations that can not be forseen ie accidents etc. I'm talking about normal situations. Oh and if you goto Uni for a degree in your dream profession and get out but can't find a job using that degree.....90% of the time I'd point my finger back at you and say "What where you thinking?" I have a counsin that got her degree in "Women Studies" but then couldn't find a job with the salary she wanted (OMG! who couldn't see that coming) so she decided to go back to UNI and get an IT degree so she could make the amount of money she wanted.

 

[pmonett]

Back to the subject, there is an article worth reading on the Inquirer :

http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=13185

The conclusion basically states that the parameters to take into account go far beyond just savings on salary. As such, the variables can considerably muddy the waters when it comes to evaluating the net result.

Pascal.

 

[dbMark]

Having been on numerous interviews in the not-too-distant past, I can agree that there is no limit to the times the head hunters say "it was narrowed down to just two, you and one other, but..."

Many are frustrated that just as the economy is starting to recover, the new jobs at the larger companies are often overseas, which is how we have a "jobless recovery".

Some of the recent advances making globalization possible are also allowing many jobs to be done from almost anywhere. If you live in India or China, you'd be elated. If you live next door to the company doing the hiring, you're at least a bit frustrated.