More anti-offshoring backlash 19

[dgillz]

Nows its the State of Indiana against Indian offshore contracts:

http://zdnet.com.com/2100-1104_2-5111987.html

Software Sales, Training, Implementation and Support for Exact Macola, eSynergy, and Crystal Reports

http://www.trianglepartners.com

 

[dgillz]

Another article covering the same issue:

http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/35/34238.html

Software Sales, Training, Implementation and Support for Exact Macola, eSynergy, and Crystal Reports

http://www.trianglepartners.com

 

[bluedragon2]

To me, I believe that a private/corporate business should be able to do business with whomever they choose as long as it is within the law, but as far as gov't contracts, I believe that all work if possible should go to companies that are based in the US. It is providing local jobs with taxpayer money which is a good thing.



Blue

If I wasn't Blue, I would just be a Dragon...

 

[lionelhill]

oh, oh, isn't balance of trade such a fun thing.

 

[bi]

dgillz,

I suppose we also could have called this string "stupid government bureaucrats at 'work'"!

Reading your second link further down, I find it hilarious that the original contract with the off-shore company was awarded by Indiana's state unemployement office! I thought those offices were supposed to help their state's unemployed!

 

[pmonett]

How ironic can you get ?
If I understand correctly, in order to help people get jobs, the Unemployment Office is hiring foreign nationals.
Well congratulations indeed. Someone said that the #1 issue for governments is to save money. He should be happy, the state is apparently saving money.
Someone else responded by saying he certainly hoped it was not the #1 issue. He should be happy too, since it seems that the #1 issue here is giving jobs to people in other countries.
I know how the economy works, and I understand that investors expect dividends, and most general managers will go to any lengths to get those dividends.
So, who is the investor here ? What are the dividends ?
If I was unemployed in Indiana, I think I'd be making one hell of a ruckus right now.

Pascal.

 

[johnwm]

So do you think that the employed taxpayers of Indiana should pay more taxes so that the unemployed can get paid uncompetitive rates of pay?

Or should the unemployed get off their tails, cut their unrealistic expectations and get competitive in the REAL world?

This is supposed to be a free-enterprise economy - does that only apply when it suits us? Should we institute restrictive practices against our potential competitors? Look at what has happened to the US steel industry since protectionism was introduced.

________________________________________________________________
If you want to get the best response to a question, please check out FAQ222-2244 first

'If we're supposed to work in Hex, why have we only got A fingers?'

 

[pmonett]

It is interesting that you validate what I just said by making a comparison to the steel industry.
The steel industry is private, the Unemployement Office is government. It is one thing to keep government from wasting money, it is another altogether when government funds are used to pay foreign employees.
You state that it is a free-enterprise economy. I agree, for PRIVATE companies with an obligation of revenue and benefit, it is.
Since when does a government organisation take part in free-enterprise ?
You talk about competitors - I did not know that the government had competition. Maybe that should be something to change.

In another forum, someone made the very wise observation that government funds used to pay local workers were recouped in taxes and increased economic activity - whereas funds used to pay outsourced employees were totally lost forever.

Finally, you seem to think that it is the unemployed people's fault that they are unemployed. I think that there are a number of people that used to work at Compaq and HP that will slightly disagree with you. In any case, I hope you remember your words if and when you get laid off.

Pascal.

 

[johnwm]

It's possibly not their fault if they become unemployed. But it is their responsibility not to stay unemployed.

My words come from the fact that my company went down the tubes and left me unemployed. Instead of doing the 'unemployed' bit and whining about my misfortune, and blaming everyone else, I took a quick refresher course on marketing my skills, and went out into the marketplace.

It's the best thing I ever did. There is always work out there for anyone who wants to work, and is prepared to make the effort. As a famous UK politician once said "If there is no work around, get on your bike and look for it!"

________________________________________________________________
If you want to get the best response to a question, please check out FAQ222-2244 first

'If we're supposed to work in Hex, why have we only got A fingers?'

 

[pmonett]

I'm glad you found your way back to a job. I have personally always been lucky, in the last fifteen years my unemployement times have always been rare and short.
Nonetheless, it is sometimes not enough to want to work. My future brother-in-law has a university degree and remained unemployed for a full year, despite repeated interviews and contacts.
Finding a job is sometimes a question of chance and pure luck, and if there is any means to make more opportunities for "the unlucky", then there is no excuse to not do it.

Pascal.

 

[lespaul]

There are also many people who participate in these fora who have been looking for work for 1+ years who may take offense at your insinuation that they aren't working hard enough to find employment. With the unemployment rate so high, there are many qualified applicants for every job. And it can be very discouraging to keep putting your resume/CV out there and not getting the response you want.

Leslie

 

[SQLSister]

So Johmwm, you believe you should be paid what the workers in India are making? I'm sure your employer would like to know that you are interested in only making a salary that is competitve with the rest of the world.

Anyway between the lost tax revenue from the employing the overseas workers and the additional amount of unemployment benefits to be paid to the workers they didn;t hire, they probably really didn't save any money outsourcing to India anyway. But that probably wasn;t counted inthe cost analysis.

 

[Onyxpurr]

Yes, free enterprise is good for private companies, however I do agree that this doesn't apply to government in this aspect. Gov't concerns should be stimulating OUR economy not those overseas.

And finding a job in a bad economy is extremely difficult even for those who are well-qualified and hard workers. Three years ago I got laid off from a great job as help desk/programmer. Right before getting that position I was a top level admin asst. Knowing my chances of getting a good job in IT were almost none, I set my sights at getting an admin job, while still keeping an eye open for IT jobs. I was came highly referred, well educated, received awards at my last job and was certainly top of my field. I was unable to find a job (that wasn't temp) for a year. I finally found a job at a place I temped at, where eventually they saw my skills and created a position for me. Never in a million years did I think I would be out of a job for more than 2 months tops!

 

[johnwm]

I didn't suggest that I got 'employment'. I set up my own company, which is why I haven't looked back, why my boss (me) knows that I am worth what the market will pay, and why I didn't mention employment. It's not a question of luck, and it's not any one else's problem.

You actually have to take control of your life and go out and do it. Sending out CVs and resumes won't earn you any money - only work will do that!

I feel sorry for the unemployed and wish you all luck (if you think that's what you're missing), but compaining about the unfairness of it all is as pointless as complaining about the weather.

Or of course you could always move to a country that encourages free enterprise and entrepreneurs, since (from what you say) the countries that you all live in seem to be governement run with no opportunities to help yourselves. The US, UK, most of the EU, most of the old Commonwealth, most of Asia and some parts of Africa are all noted for their encoragement for small businesses I believe.

________________________________________________________________
If you want to get the best response to a question, please check out FAQ222-2244 first

'If we're supposed to work in Hex, why have we only got A fingers?'

 

[pmonett]

There we have it, capitalism at its best.
How blindingly obvious the solution is. Of course, let's just all found our own companies. Blimey, why didn't I think of that ? Did anybody tell the government ? Here is the solution to all our economic problems ! Stop thinking that we all need a job, we just need a company of our own !
Well, johnwm, I believe that it is a good thing that some people step up and try something important. It is critical that there be enough people willing to undertake such an important project as a company. But not everyone can, whatever the qualifications.
My father was a very good electronician. I have reason to believe that he participated in the creation of the first magnetic storage media. Yet, he was also very proud, and at one point in his life he decided that he had enough of taking orders. He founded his own company, and failed. Ultimately, this ended in a shattered family, and shattered his life. Yet, he was a fine technician, and he had many endorsements to prove this fact.
Some people are able to take the lead, some people are made to follow the leader. And, if I am not mistaken, there are companies that actually hire people to work for them.

So, johnwm, since we're all just a bunch of pussies, you might care to indicate whether or not you're hiring ? Some of us might be interested.

Pascal.

 

[johnwm]

I'm sorry that you feel you have to be defensive about your position. I was trying to widen a few horizons and open a few eyes to the alternatives.

You're right, employees will (and should) outnumber entrepreneurs and 'capitalists'. One shepherd can look after a hundred sheep. That doesn't mean that you shouldn't at least consider seriously the alternatives.

Being unemployed for a year (if you live in a country where the government provides some sort of payment to the unemployed) may be no big deal money-wise. But it may indicate to you that your current skill-set / location / training / attitude may not fit with the market requirements. That should be a clue to anyone that they themselves need to take some different action, even if only re-training.

________________________________________________________________
If you want to get the best response to a question, please check out FAQ222-2244 first

'If we're supposed to work in Hex, why have we only got A fingers?'

 

[pmonett]

johnwm, I am not defensive about my position, merely insulted by the underlying implication of your words. If you re-read onyxpurr's post, you might realize that even with the right skill set, you still can not be "noticed" and therefor go without a job for a good while.

Stop telling people that "all they have to do is work harder". First, it is not true since there are hard-working people who are out of a job, and second it is quite annoying to just about everyone.

Sure, there are slackers everywhere. And yes, I agree that one must put one's abilities into question and, ideally, continually expand the skill set. But as I said, there is a factor of chance, luck, destiny or whatever, and if it is the case for you, then you're basically screwed whatever you do until your luck changes.
Not that that means you should just kick back and wait for the rainbow. Being proactive and acquiring new skills is indeed essential. But sometimes it is simply not enough.

Pascal.

 

[Onyxpurr]

Oh yeah, I remember being extremely wealthy off of the unemployment checks when I was getting them (dripping sarcasm)

I did work temp until I obtained full-time employement, but opening my own business was not an option. Aside from not wanting my own business (been there, done that, hate it) I did not have the time or the money to do this. Just because something is an option doesn't mean it was the right option. Given there are jobs out there, but there's a lot of competition too. And altough I had a temp job, it severely set me back financially. And I wasn't the only one.

I agree that there are some people out there who don't want to work at it, but don't bring your stereotype over onto the potion of good, hard-working who happen to be currently and formerly unemployed.

For me...well imagine going to interviews in which the interviewer tells you he received 400 qualified applicants, and is personally interviewing 100 well qualified applicants who are willing to take about a 50% pay cut and no benefits? That was hell of a shock to me. It's still a shock to me when 3 years later my company posts for an IT management position and I ask HR how many applications they received instead of giving me a number, gestures indicating a paper stack about 8 inches high.

 

[johnwm]

pmonett
If you feel insulted by what you see as the <underlying implication> then you are taking my words amiss. There is no insult implied or intended. My central thesis in all this discussion is summed up by one sentence from my last post <But it may indicate to you that your current skill-set / location / training / attitude may not fit with the market requirements.>

It does not represent anything except what I see as a summary of a self-evident truth. It's not about luck, or laziness - it's about market forces. When the market-place changes we can suffer and go under - or we can adapt and change to suit the new situation.

Onyxpurr
I'm disappointed that you lower yourself to personal attacks by using sarcasm. I didn't suggest that setting up your own company was the only way forward. I said <I took a quick refresher course on marketing my skills, and went out into the marketplace.> For me the best route turned out to be my own business - for many of my former colleagues retraining or moving were better options.

All
If things aren't working out for you personally, you need to find out why. Think what happened to all those poor people whose trade was making Conestoga Wagons. When you're stuck in a rut you sometimes you need to look at things from a wider perspective to see that there are alternatives out there. I'm only trying to tempt you into looking!

________________________________________________________________
If you want to get the best response to a question, please check out FAQ222-2244 first

'If we're supposed to work in Hex, why have we only got A fingers?'

 

[Onyxpurr]

I'm sorry if you were disappointed by my remark, but I also remember being in your position at one point. You really don't feel it can happen to you, until it does.

When I was laid off, I told my husband that I woud be able to find employment within a few weeks. It wasn't much of a concern. But I couldn't believe it when I couldn't get a job for a year. Don't get me wrong, I got very creative with my finances and my temporary jobs, but I was putting out resumes left and right. Temp agencies were apologizing to me because I was laid off in the worst month that they known of so far.

Please don't assume that I didn't have the knowledge or the skill. And please don't assume that just because you took some training and got a job, that it is just as easily done by everyone else.