Is UNIFY HiPath 4000 V7 better than CISCO IPT?

[luvarne]

Our organization of 5000+ employee is considering changing the PABX system from UNIFY HiPath 4000 V7 to CISCO IPT.
I'm convinced that UNIFY offers better features than CISCO. How can I convince my management that I am correct? Any feedback would be much appreciated!

 

[donb01]

These kind of questions usually spur arguments and debates, but....

I have V7R2 right now and will probably stall V8 until they don't give me a choice - V8 does add functionality and some new capabilities.

Cisco tends to lock you down in expensive service contracts that are not necessarily optional. With Unify they usually try to get you to at least have a software update subscription but they won't force you into a service contract otherwise, but T&M can be expensive. We have Unify SWA and a minimal contract with Black Box that provides remote monitoring and anything they can fix remotely without dispatching a tech, plus repair parts exchange. I do everything else. If they have to dispatch a tech it is T&M but the rate is reduced because of the contract.

Upgrading Cisco systems (has been in the past) is difficult because you can't just upgrade part of the system if it is really spread out. If you are doing an upgrade you tend to have to do it all the same night or you will have assorted system issues. They want you to regularly keep it up to date. Unify doesn't care if you keep it up to date for the most part, BUT, if you do not keep it within about 3 versions of current and you have a problem they will make you bring it up to current before they will look at it. If you later go to buy a contract they will make you bring it up to current before the contract starts. There are people out there still running V5 ad it's doing just fine, but there are few service options unless they go with a third party provider, and even they will not have access to Unify support for that old of stuff.

Cisco tends to want you to keep all your network switches, routers, etc, up to date as well, which is a really good idea for security purposes but can really be a hassle if your place runs 24/7/365. If you start to have problems and ask for help they will like to blame it on your network hardware not being up to date.

Cisco might be easier to hire techs that are experienced in managing those systems. If you want someone with experience on the 4K you might have to look harder but they are out there!

We have been with Rolm/Siemens/Unify/Atos since 1984, and usually our experience is the stuff just sits there and runs. You're always going to have failures in any system, but these have proven fairly reliable and somewhat easy to maintain - espcially if you take the online BACKUPS course they offer at Unify Academy - it will show you about 6 or 7 fairly easy ways to have concrete disaster recovery on your system for not a lot of money (cloning HD, scheduled backups of remote shelves, off-site backups, snapshots of all the system data, how to pull your system recovery files off the processors, etc.


Don Bruechert, Voice Comm Analyst II
CareTech Solutions @ Holy Family Memorial
Manitowoc, WI, USA

 

[keyset6]

I was with Rolm/Siemens beginning in 1984 until 2007. Is Atos a company Unify evolved into? I've always been one for multiple backups. Looks like Unify is good with supporting that.

 

[thepfy]

Atos bought Unify last year or the year before.
They seem to have split the company into different areas. The UK field engineers I know moved to Daisy and the account management has recently moved to Maintel.

As an organisation which has moving from DX and 4K to CUCM and 4K, I concur with Don's points about Cisco maintenance costs, particularly as you need maintenance on the licences you have.
The only good thing from a licensing standpoint is there is no license required for SIP trunks, although if you are using a CUBE you are licensed for concurrent connection. However, the license on the CUBE is a paper license and there is no enforcement of the limit.

There is no perfect phone system. All have their strengths and weaknesses. Best to decide what features you need and budget and work with suppliers.

 

[Bicaros]

Svp,
je voudrais savoir si cisco IP conférence 8831 est compatible avec Hipath 4000 V4.
Merci

 

[LoPath]

Bicaros...
Ce téléphone utilise le protocole SIP. Vous devriez donc pouvoir configurer un poste SIP sur une carte STMI4. Les fonctionnalités peuvent varier, car certaines peuvent être propriétaires de systèmes Cisco.

LoPath
Maintain HiPath 4000 V5 & V6, OpenScape Xpert V4, OpenScape Xpressions, OpenScape Contact Center V8, OpenScape Voice V9

 

[Bicaros]

Merci Lopath,
Cependant, il y a des SIP qui ne sont pas compatible avec H4K V4 à cause de la version du SIP: exemple POLYCOM SOUNDSTATION IP 5000.
C'est pour cela je voudrais avoir la confirmation.
KINDS REGARDS

 

[mookie86]

Hi I'm an old roman who now works for a large retailer with 800 locations - the chain acquired multiple smaller stores during its growth. This added many PBX platforms, programming and local techs programming into the mix. With the downsizing of the phone men in my company I have spent hours trying to determine/fix what the local guy did years ago. The older systems are work horses, I still have several 8000's running, along with 9004 and 9005 10/40/50 and 70's - Avaya Nortel and a few 9006 hipaths. What I like about Cisco is we can now bring each site into a new "standard" configuration. The installation of the phones is cake now compared with trying to talk a local tech on toning out station, feeders and cross connecting. I don't deal with the pricing on the IPT equipment, I more involved with keeping the TDM going.
I will always go to bat for TDM as this has paid my mortgage and kids tuitions for over 30 years... (just needed to vent as I am on call this weekend!, have a good weekend)

 

[keyset6]

I'm curious mookie86, does this mean anything to you? ME004, ME182, ME178, and ME028. If your not with the retailer I was with, you're probably wondering what in the world I'm talking about. Those were (and I think still are) stores with Siemens 9006s. I've replaced hard drives on all but ME004, some more than once. When the hard drives started to get noisy I'd bring the DATs back to my office where I had a spare Mod 30 and build a new drive from the backups with the latest ISYAP. I'd keep interrupting the script to add or omit some steps to keep the latest Unix version, not all sites had the latest 9006.3 (yes, cave-man release) with Direct AMO which I wanted to maintain. In the fall of 2015 we replaced an analog line only 8000 with a 9751 Mod 10. Like you "TDM as this has paid my mortgage and kids tuitions for over 30 years". I actually started in the business with key systems in 1977.

It was nice having serial to ethernet adaptors, I rarely ever had to connect a cable to a PBX. I'd just use Procomm and the Telnet option. Of course a few times when Unix was down I'd have to - made a keyboard file for the RMX port so <Enter> would work. I thought the Vertical systems we started to install to convert SIP to T1 E&M wink to the PBX was going to be the PBX the store would get if the original existing PBX failed, but I heard they'll be going with Cisco.

I'll still get an occasional call with a Siemens 9006 question, I was the only one who worked on them extensively in the field. I highly doubt any of them have any weekly backups running via UBA that I set up. I've been gone for 2 years now.

 

[mookie86]

Keyset - ME182 AND 28 now Cisco, only had (knock on wood) one issue with 178 - had to restart the cabinet. Don't think anyone has been in the 9006's since you and bongi got screwed by the downsizing. Trying to remove node 4 out of 428 they sold one of the building in san fran, remote node connected with Ethernet circuit. We talk soon

 

[keyset6]

Hey mookie I figured you were with... where Bongi and I were! Ed? Pete?, or Lorraine, Andy? Don't know if there's a PM option here. Good those 2 are no longer 9006s. The DAT drive in ME182 failed a few years ago and never got around to replacing it, was helping with Windows 10 upgrades. I replaced the hard drives in those 2 stores twice. I thought you weren't with them when I saw the post about the node, didn't think a store would have a Mod 70 - damn that must be a big store!

Where I'm at now there's still many TDM systems out there, of course we've got a few VoIPs and hosted. Certainly some advantages to VoIP - but we don't push it. What's kinda strange about installing a hosted system is you really don't need tools except to remove the old system! I've heard reports of regrets after removing TDM and going to IP, of course the network is a big factor.

For the subject we're in - when I was with the retailer I was hoping they went with Avaya's VoIP. I found the TDM systems easy and much less time consuming to administer especially compared to the Siemens 9006, and I heard the command set or GUI interface with their VoIP systems was similar to what we were used to. Just my opinion - but I don't think the audio quality and feel of the Cisco stations are the best. Maybe it was the particular model the store used when they started installing them in the new discount division.

 

[donb01]

Relating to the DAT drive "failure" issues, I was once told by a tech to "clean the pi$$ out of them" and found that 6 or 7 cleanings in a row will sometimes recover a "failed" DAT drive. I had 6 or 7 9006 locations between 80's and 30's, and one Hicom 150 location (AKA 3000 V1) which was my first one that I upgraded into a 4K V5 when evaulating the platform. Our whole org is on 4K now, but I'm still downsizing the number of sites. Also note that there used to be a 3.5" floppy disk with the 9006 releases that had the TVI910 keyboard file on it for using ProComm with RMX.

Don Bruechert, Voice Comm Analyst II
CareTech Solutions @ Holy Family Memorial
Manitowoc, WI, USA

 

[keyset6]

Yes, the instructions from Siemens was to run the cleaning tape through general times. That usually did the trick. You'd make a check mark each time the cleaning tape was used, when the spaces for check marks were filled, the tape was deemed done. Sounds like the Siemens 4k is a big improvement over the mid 90s 9006. We (Siemens-Rolm) had some dissatisfied customers and lost some as well especially migrating from a Rolm 9751. I've had several situations where tapes failed during a hard drive restoral, but it sounds like with the 4k they've got database and Unix (is it still Unix?) backups to a much more reliable process and media.

I recall the keyboard files on the diskettes, the TV910 and pansi keyboard for EMML. And Control-D to exit Direct AMO. In later years Siemens issued CDs with the manuals and associated files. The 3000 seemed like quite a reliable system. I really liked being able to store and view the database on a pc, what is common with the systems I work with now.

 

[donb01]

I have one of those manual sets from years ago that must have fallen out of the tech's laptop case or something.
The only thing that really frustrated me in the 9006 world was when they came out with LC-Win and then started reducing the EMML functionality - I was especially fond of %CHASTN and %DELSTN which saved a heck of a lot of time for some things. As things progressed people would use LC-Win for some things and EMML for others, which of course would eventually corrupt the database and require a regen.

From 4000 V6 on they now use Linux instead of unixware, and they also broke the primary functions of the system into 4 virtual machines for RMX, CSTA, Assistant, and TDM if I remember without looking at my notes. There are probably at least 8 - 10 ways of backing up various parts of the system, and if done properly you could face utter destruction of your system and literally have it right back online and current withn a few hours of receiving replacement hardware.

That was one thing I liked about the 150/3000 - I had copies of those database files all over the place. The only thing on my 150 was that it was REALLY finicky about using that exact serial cable that came with it for admin, and didn't want to have anything to do with a USB to Serial adapter. I had one clunky old laptop with a real serial port that was frozen in time on Windows XP that I used to admin that system, and when we upgraded to what we have now and it got donated to some church I made sure the laptop and cable went along with it!

I started on the big orange beast 8000. I self taught myself on Thanksgiving day the first year I worked here because I couldn't take any PTO until after my first 90 days were up and I was bored. There were a stack of MAC workorders in the box and when the guy that usually did them came back on Monday he nearly dropped his dentures when I said they were done. I started with Panasonic key systems in a previous life so I wasn't completely clueless...


Don Bruechert, Voice Comm Analyst II
CareTech Solutions @ Holy Family Memorial
Manitowoc, WI, USA