Is it copyright violation if I use existing tables for a rewrite?

[RoadRunnerOz]

A potential client wants to rewrite an existing application for many reasons but mostly due to poor service, bugs galore, etc from their existing programmer. They're suggesting I use the existing tables for a variety of reasons. Without going into the logic for me to use their tables, "does this violate copyright?" The company does not own the code and the programmer won't give/sell it to them. As I see it, the code is the contractors but the tables are 100% the company's. But on the other hand, the contractor "wrote" the tables so it then is his "code". Please set me straight here.

This is not the first time I've encountered this problem so I guess it must happen around the world.

Example: If I could refox the exe, which I can't, I know I cannot cut & paste any code into my new program as this would violate copyright. So is using existing tables the same? - I can view it either way but I really need a "legal" answer.

So to sum up: "Is this a copyright violation?" by using existing tables.

TIA


Michael Ouellette
mouellette@compuserve.com

 

[rgbean]

While I am not a lawyer, in the past it's normally been agreed that data collected by the customer, belongs to the customer. (One exception would be provided lookup tables - e.g. ZIP code tables purchased or developed outside of the user application.)

Assuming the application has an export capability, you could always "dump" the data and import it into tables designed and created by you!

Rick

 

[Mike Lewis]

Michael,

With the caveat that I am not a lawyer (and neither are most or all of the members of this forum) ...

I would assume that the data belongs to the client, but that the design of the tables belongs to the developer. So, on that basis, you wouldn't be able to copy the tables structures (the field names, etc.).

Having said that, you are not actually copying the table structures -- you are merely using the ones that already exist.

Also, it is probably an implied term in the original contract the the client would have full unrestricted use of the tables, including the ability to use them in other applications. I don't see how the developer could claim otherwise.

Keep in mind that this is not really your problem. You are right to draw the client's attention to the issue, but ultimately it is an issue between the client and the original developer.

Mike


Mike Lewis
Edinburgh, Scotland

http://www.ml-consult.demon.co.uk

 

[RoadRunnerOz]

Thanks... but you missed the mark. I KNOW I can export the DATA to csv, excel, etc & recreate tables & import. I KNOW the DATA belongs to the customer. CAN I USE THE TABLES???

I've written add-on programs for existing apps which use new and existing tables. I never felt that violated copyright. But this situation is different. We want to throw away the old program and recreate from scratch but KEP THE TABLES. Is this WRONG???

TIA

Michael Ouellette
mouellette@compuserve.com

 

[Mike Lewis]

Michael,

I thought my answer covered that point, but just to be clear ... If I was in your position, I would go ahead and do it.

You say that you never felt it was wrong to write an add-on using existing tables (and I agree with that). So why is this case different? The only difference is the fact that you will throwing away the old programs. I don't see how that could affect ther ownership of the tables.

Mike


Mike Lewis
Edinburgh, Scotland

http://www.ml-consult.demon.co.uk

 

[RoadRunnerOz]

Sorry Mike... My answer was to rgbean BEFORE I even knew you replied.
Thanks for your response. I just don't want to be the meat in the sandwich in case this becomes dirty.

I would have to change some of the tables ( normalise, remove key words for field names, add new fields etc ) for the new application. Not sure if this is a violation either???

PS There was no contract. All I can say is this programmer does VFP NO services at all. He does things that they don't want - and charges, doesn't do changes they want and says VFP can't do what it can (He say VFP can't interface with Office!) He's a joke for a programmer. Hence their frustration

Michael Ouellette
mouellette@compuserve.com

 

[rgbean]

Michael,
I concur with Mike, with the only restiction on any "copyrighted" data. (I had a client that gave the application away, but the basic data that was used to provide answers to the user, was subscription based, encrypted and not available for use by ANY other application. The user could save and publish the analysis results, but not the raw data.)

Rick

 

[Mike Lewis]

Michael,

Looks like we're thinking along the same lines -- although I don't thinkg things like changing field names or normalising the data would make it more likely to be a copyright infringement.

I like your meat-in-the-sandwich metaphore. Best thing is to keep the client notified of the issue.

Let us know what you decide.

Mike


Mike Lewis
Edinburgh, Scotland

http://www.ml-consult.demon.co.uk

 

[Steve Bowman]

DISCLAIMER:Not to be considered legal advice!
Anytime programmer/client relationships go bad, by design is murky water. I will tell you what my attorney told me in a very similar situation. If the original programmer wants to bring a case he can, any part of "HIS" licensed program is HIS property, with the caveat of mitigating circumstance. Where in this case exists, the likelihood of suite is very remote. To be 100% in the clear you would need to port the data to "like" structures. One other course would be to Act as an employee of the client with understanding "written" indemnifying you of any legal consequences/costs in the event of civil action.

Final outcome for me, I coded the project, cashed the check and went on with life.

Steve Bowman
steve.bowman@ultraex.com

 

[craigsboyd]

I don't see how a programmer can copyright tables or their structures personally. I mean if I create a table called tblPeople and then put name, address, phone in it then slap a copyright on it that doesn't prohibit anyone from making the same table, it couldn't possibly. I would be more concerned about the rewrite actually. Seeing that you are proposing to rewrite an existing application and using it's database it would go to reason that you will be implementing most of functionality that is there and maybe adding to it. Coming up with purely original design after having viewed the working application is difficult to say the least. But even this copyright is a farce of sorts, very seldom does anyone in the programming industry comes up with a truly original GUI, in fact most of us are trying to do the exact opposite...we are trying to adhere to Windows design priniciples so that our applications will work and act in a manner that the user is familiar with and to be quite honest we borrow ideas from existing applications all the time, that includes tables.

Slighthaze = NULL

[ul][li]FAQ184-2483
An excellent guide to getting a fast and accurate response to your questions in this forum.[/li][/ul]

 

[ramani]

HI

I have read somewhere, I am unable to quote exactly, on some legal advice on this.

1. When a developer is hired, unless otherwise it is specified that the code belongs to the developer, the client gets the rights to the codes. IF the developer sells standard distribution then, he has to specify that it is so and reserve his rights to the codes. The fact that the developer is paid the price for custom development, buying the whole of the software sold and the client gets the rights.
2. If the contention that the data tables can be reserved by the developer, (it is rare as in the case of selling with the data and allowing additions and modifications to the data as in the case of postal codes), then Microsoft can claim all the .docs and .xls files created by user.
So this contention is baseless.
3. The software code can be retained by the developer, but the tables and data belong to client. This is a possible case. So using the tables by another software developer is valid, so long the client permits the newer developer. If this is wrong, we cannot do any use of stored data thru internet and so on......

While all said by me, I am not a lawyer and these can change from country to country.


ramani
(Subramanian.G),FoxAcc, ramani_g@yahoo.com

 

[Steve Bowman]

final word, in response to post from slighthaze. I live in the state of California where everything is open season for litigation. Microsoft is in litigation currently for "Look and Feel" MS vs. Lindows. I borrow Ideas all the time I could not be as productive without it, though 100% of borrowed code would be considered Public Domain. I think the argument in this case would be "Intellectual Property" a course taken many times in the Technology World. If someone took my Table Structure and redesigned "MY" application using "ANY" part of "MY" application I would feel slighted, after all are not most Civil Suites based on one persons perception over another's. Bottom line as I understand it "If the programmer wants to bring suite he can" Winning is another story, reguardless I still would have to deal with it.


Steve Bowman
steve.bowman@ultraex.com

 

[RoadRunnerOz]

Thanks for all your great replies. I'm going to mull this over. However; If this goes ahead I most likely will create a new database with all new tables just to be on the safe side.

ramani: "When a developer is hired, unless otherwise it is specified that the code belongs to the developer, the client gets the rights to the codes." - I always believed & read that the developer owns the code unless otherwise specified. I develop apps for clients at my home office. My clients NEVER even see the code nor do they ask for it.
But because I developed FOR them I would give them the code in a heartbeat. Now if I developed some special program that I thought I could market I would mention up front that I own the code but we can split the $ if THEY onsell to someone else. This way we both win....

Michael Ouellette
mouellette@compuserve.com

 

[ramani]

Hi Michael,

Your last note..I always believed & read that the developer owns the code unless otherwise specified.

If the hiring is for a specific project to custom develop an application, the code belongs to buyer since he is paying a price to develop the software and he is not picking it off the shelf. SO he gets the right to the software code as well.

If he is hiring you to implement a project and buys your off the shelf standard software as per demo given, then you can claim the code as your property in the absence of specic agreement.

However, it will always be wise to put that in small letters atleast, in your quotes that the source code and the software remains your copy right and the user only gets a right for an unlimited use of this software for his purpose.... etc.. is safer.

The lack of words cannot imply that you own it.. When you grow up in financial size, you could get the legal notice .. it may not happen when you remain small.




ramani
(Subramanian.G),FoxAcc, ramani_g@yahoo.com

 

[RoadRunnerOz]

Maybe the law differs here in OZ but whoever develops, automatically owns the code even if the client contracts the labour. An employee will never own the code unless otherwise stipulated.

Remember, US and Australia - two countries DIVIDED by a common language

TA ( Ozy speak for thanks! )

Michael Ouellette
mouellette@compuserve.com

 

[medic]

Hi Michael (and everybody),

There could be no way for a programmer to sue a client for allowing another program to manage the tables designed for the programmer's application. If he could, then Microsoft could also sue all developers of Windows apps for making their programs to run in Windows.

I'm not a lawyer....just my 2 cents.

Medic

 

[Steve Bowman]

I guess my real point is, if someone feels the least bit slighted by the actions of another there is case for civil suite. In other words if the relationship between client and original programmer is to the point of disagreeable separation there exists the possibility. The question was NOT would I "loose" a suite or "am I in the right to do this" it was "could I be the meat in someone's sandwich" and from my experience my answer is you could be the pickle.


Steve Bowman
steve.bowman@ultraex.com

 

[darrellblackhawk]

Without a contract expressly stating that the table
structures are the intellectual property of the developer,
I don't think any court would honor a suit brought by the
developer vis-à-vis the use of the tables.

If the client owes the developer monies or has in any way
defrauded the previous developer, that developer may have
some legal rights that may be complicated by the use of
any items they may have valid intellectual property rights to.

On another note, since the VFP/xBase table structure is in
the public domain and most column names are fairly obvious,
it's unlikely the previous developer will have a legal
claim regarding the use of the tables.

Darrell


'We all must do the hard bits so when we get bit we know where to bite'