Is English Difficult? 2

[CajunCenturion]

What is the most difficult part of English to deal with for those who've learned English as a second+ language?

Good Luck
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As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein

 

[strongm]

Bill Bryson has a fair amount to say on this subject in "Mother Tongue" and "Made in America"

 

[SQLSister]

English is my main language, but there are two things I suspect make it difficult. First, it doesn't use the same syntax as many other languages. I know when I learned French, Spanish and German (a million years ago in high school), it drove me crazy that the words in the sentence didn't always go in the same order I was used to using them. I'm sure that would be true in reverse as well. Plus English is so full of exceptions and multiple word meanings and words pronounced the same but with different meanings and spellings. Heck, native English speakers have trouble with all that.

 

[BJCooperIT]

My friend from India says idioms trouble her most. She seldom asks me a question regarding English as it has been her 3rd language since childhood. When she does ask, it usually involves an idiom. There are so many and deducing their meanings is not necessarily intuitive. "She is set in her ways" is puzzling when you just know the meaning of the words but are unfamiliar with the expression.

^{Beware of false knowledge; it is more dangerous than ignorance. ~George Bernard Shaw}
Consultant/Custom Forms & PL/SQL - Oracle 8i & 9i - Windows 2000

 

[strongm]

I'm not convinced that idiom is the sole province of English (although I do suspect that we may have more of it than in most other langauges)

 

[ramani]

HI

This, infact, is a topic I just came to ask or put.. whatever. And CC beat me. Great.

The problem, I used to find is often 'slang'. I am not sure, if 'slang' over a period of time becomes 'Idioms and Phrases'.

The standard 'idioms and phrases' such as 'kick the bucket' could trouble aliens. However the common ones such as 'high fly' or 'show the door' (be it idiom or slang) could easily be understood by every one.

Is this not very similar to 'net language' words such as FYI, IMHO ? (I dont like to use these).

For an effective communication on the net, more specific to this forum, I suggest we should not indulge in any sort of vocabulary which tests the english knowledge of users. We should talk in simple english which should communicate to any reader what the words directly mean. This will take the pressure of non-english users in understanding the answers or questions.

More to follow when I find time. Now I have to log off to attend my work. (Or may be I will keep quiet if I find some one else expresses the same.)

____________________________________________
ramani - (Subramanian.G)

http://winnersoft.coolfreepages.com/

 

[CajunCenturion]

ramani, I totally agree with you. Slang and Idioms are one reason behind mis-communication. Hopefully we can use this forum to discuss them, their meaning and how best to use them, so that together, we all can increase our grasp and effective use of English.

Good Luck
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As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein

 

[TonyJollans]

As well as idiom, or perhaps as another facet of it, cultural references are a major problem for someone learning a second language. A couple of examples are:
[ul]
[li]The number of sporting metaphors in everyday use - references to cricket are alien to most of the non-English world (and similarly baseball to non-Americans).[/li]
[li]References to such things as nursery rhymes (or characters in children's fiction) which you learn as a child are meaningless if you didn't grow up in an English environment.[/li][/ul]

Another issue (and I don't really know if this helps or hinders) is the written language. Western European languages all use more or less the same alphabet; when we learn one another's languages we don't have to learn a new script - possibly written in another direction - something an Indian, say, always has to do when learning a new language.

Enjoy,
Tony

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[mattKnight]

The number of sporting metaphors in everyday use - references to cricket are alien to most of the non-English world

Hmm, pedantic, I know! I would suggest that cricket is played in more countries in the non-english world than baseball.

I would agree that unless the idiom or metaphor are well known they can cause mis-communication but there are some that need no explanation.

eg. "not enough room to swing a cat" is self explanatory, without having to understand the detail of nautical punishment.





Take Care

Matt
If at first you don't succeed, skydiving is not for you.

 

[TonyJollans]

Interesting, Matt. The phrase, certainly in context and probably even out of context, is understandable - but why exactly?

I would venture that it doesn't matter what follows not enough room; almost any phrase would serve to provide the emphasis (i.e. that somewhere is very small as opposed to just small). Whilst a native English speaker might look sideways at you if you said Not enough room to shingle a pitstop, or some other nonsense, native and non-native speakers alike would probably grasp the meaning - even though the phrase is far from self-explanatory.

Enjoy,
Tony

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[Chopstik]

I think two of the more obvious problems have already been hit upon - slang/idioms and cultural reference. In everyday speech, native English speakers tend to speak as much slang as they do formal (or even informal) English. Sometimes, non-native speakers (especially if they live in English-speaking areas) are able to pick up on the overall meaning even if some of the words elude them. More often, though, if they live in non-English speaking areas (e.g. their English is usually developed through school or the internet through boards such as Tek-Tips), slang is something that is not normally taught or learned. I know that the languages I have learned formally (Spanish and Chinese) bear little resemblance to the everyday conversations I have with native speakers of those languages as we usually converse in slang.

The second point has to do with cultural reference. I can speak more for the US in this case, but I am sure the same holds for the UK or other English-speaking nations. There are many cultural contexts that have become part of the US vernacular that someone who has grown up here would be familiar with but someone who has not, even if they understand some of the slang, could easily misinterpret or not understand at all. An example might be the term "drive-by". In formal English, this has one meaning. In many parts of the US, it would have clearly another meaning. It depends on the context of a conversation and the relative understanding of both (or all) communicants as to the determining meaning of the term. I know that there are even differences of this sort when native English speakers from different countries (or locations) are talking (though, if challenged, at the moment, I am hard-pressed to remember one), so it is not difficult to imagine how hard it would be for a non-native English speaker to pick up on everything.

One additional thought that I think was also brought up is the fact that there are no hard and fast rules in English that cannot be broken. I know in both Spanish and Chinese, there are formal grammar rules that are not routinely broken, whereas in English, broken rules are relatively routine. ;-) Is it any wonder that English is considered the hardest language in the world to learn when there is no standard rule from which to operate?

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"If you can't explain something to a six-year-old, you really don't understand it yourself."
-- Albert Einstein

 

[LittleSmudge]

eg. "not enough room to swing a cat" is self explanatory

The problem comes when native English speakers assume, not only understanding of the phrase but also, familiarity with the phrase and use another phrase that alludes to it.

Eg.
When showing a new student to his room in our halls of residence ( 1979 ) a friend of mine noticed that the fresher had been put into one of the very small rooms in M block.
The only comment my friend made was "You haven't got a cat, have you ?"

The look of utter confusion on the fresher's face as he was led away could only be equalled by the look of comprehension when he finally got to the broom cupboard that was to be his home for the next 10 months !





G LS
spsinkNOJUNK@yahoo.co.uk
Remove the NOJUNK to use.

 

[CajunCenturion]

Chopstik - That's a good point on the rules and how often they're followed and/or broken. Would you mind starting a new thread on one of your favorite "rules", as an example of one which is routinely not followed.



Good Luck
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As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein

 

[cian]

Another thin is consistancy in pronounciation.
I'm learning (at a snails pace) Finnish, one great thing about this difficult language is that every letter is always pronounced the very same. The Finns have big problems in English because of course in English not only are there silent letters but also letters are not always pronounced the same way every time.



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[johnwm]

I got this far with silent letters - perhaps you can all help me out.

a as in mean
b as in plumb
c as in scene
d as in adjunct
e as in mine
f as in
g as in through
h as in whist
i as in friend
j as in Jugoslav
k as in rock
l as in calm
m as in
n as in solemn
o as in foetus
p as in bath
q as in acquire
r as in
s as in Paris
t as in castle
u as in
v as in
w as in
x as in
y as in
z as in

When we're done perhaps Cajun would edit it into one, or I will assemble it and RF this version.

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[rosieb]

A few more (though a few are reaching a bit, as they're really french)

m as in mnemonic
p as in cupboard (tut, tut, John!)
r as in foyer
s as in island
u as in guest
w as in two
x as in faux
y as in prayer
z as in rendezvous

and
st as in asthma




Rosie
"Never express yourself more clearly than you think" (Niels Bohr)

 

[johnwm]

Thanks for your help RosieB. Yes, cupboard is better (I fear that my concentration may have slipped on that one - or maybe my sense of hunour!))

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If you want to get the best response to a question, please check out FAQ222-2244 first

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[sha76]

But if you try taking out some of those 'silent' letters you see they're there for a purpose:

mean is not pronounced men (although I could see an argument for spelling it meen)

the e in mine changes the pronunciation of the i - that one is actually following a rule!

the J in Jugoslav (surely not the Anglicised spelling?) makes the difference between yug & ug

I pronounce the l in calm and the s in Paris (unless I'm speaking French), am I just strange?

 

[Stella740pl]

johnwm,

You wouldn’t believe, but I just found out from your post (!!!) that l in calm is supposed to be silent, and I live in USA for years! First thing I did I checked with Webster’s on my desk – wow, it looks like it is silent. Something must be wrong either with my hearing or with local pronunciation. Anyway, when I think of silent l, I would rather think of walk.

As for Paris, yes, the s would be silent in French, but here it is pronounced the English (American?) way – with s and the first syllable stressed.

Bath as example of silent p? What about psychology? It can also be an example of silent h, I guess. By the way, guess has silent u, or I mispronounce it? Foetus is probably rather British spelling, here it is spelled more routinely just fetus.

Also, the way I hear it, driveway has silent v, not only silent e.

In rock, it rather c that is silent.

rosieb,
I actually misheard and/or mispronounced some of your examples as well, like mnemonic or faux.

Guys, what you are doing is helpful.

Stella

 

[rosieb]

stella740pl

Glad you find it useful, it's fun trying to think of examples.

There are a number of words which are spelled differently in the US, often with silent letters omitted, eg colour vs color. so how about:

o as in leopard
k as in knee

Guess certainly has a silent u and you're right about psychology, p and h both silent. I'd pronounce driveway with the v sounded.

Remember that there are massive variations in the way words are pronounced, not only between UK and US (eg (h)erb in the US but herb in the UK) but locally in both countries - visit Glasgow or Newcastle in UK, and initially you probably wouldn't recognise the language as English.

If you want a good example of inconsistant pronounciation, the town of Loughborough is pronounced "Luffbrer", the "ough" being pronounced in two different ways within a single word (plenty of Brits get that wrong).

Bath as example of silent p? John is making a joke, if you would like a full explanation, I'm sure he'll oblige! (Johnwm - dig yourself out of that! )


Rosie
"Never express yourself more clearly than you think" (Niels Bohr)