Has anyone else noticed... (Lack of skills) 6

[Albion]

Has anyone else noticed that the IT field is getting filled up with people who haven't a clue about computers? I have a friend who was a proxy administrator a year or so back. He'd always complain about how all the help desk issues would get dumped on him because no one in help desk had a clue about the problems at hand. It got to the point where he couldn't do his own job because he was doing the jobs of helpdesk all the time. No wonder he quit after 6 months. I had to deal with an "MCSE" who once came to me and asked what an "Insert CD" message was. What is going through the heads of these HR people? Do they see a few certs on a resume and hire these people to fill some quota? Really, no wonder so many good IT people are out of work, they're giving all the jobs to idiots who'll work for minimum wage.

Has anyone else noticed this trend in the It industry?

-al

 

[Tarwn]

Hmm, but while apprenticeship would cater to the "applied" portion of applied science, it doesn't exact fulfill the full requirements, in my mind.

I think the field should be split up. So far it has had a major divide between the IT worker, the IT manager, and the IT Tech Support group, but I think there should be a further split into a few more categories:
Hardware Installation and Maintenance
Hardware Research and Development
Software Installation and Maintenance
Software Research and Development

If we look at these 4 groups that generally get grouped into IT we see they are really only alike in that they deal with computers. I think the field has moved from a single science to a group of sciences and trades. Any type of installation and maintenance job could easily be learned as an apprenticeship, and usually is learned either on the job or from a technical school. Research and development positions are something that should require at least a minimal education. Yes apprenticeship is a good idea, but do you want to spend a minimum of one or two years teaching someone from scratch how to program and what a variable is and so on, even if it is a language dependant education?

Hardware might be an easier example,
while your standard electrician might have apprenticed to learn his trade, an EE (electrical engineer) probably had schooling and had to have minimally learned enough to pass his engineering certification.
Following the same login, someone that installs or maintains a group of computers or network could be taught what they needed to know on an apprenticeship type of level, but when it comes to designing hardware they need to have a much deeper foundation in the theoretical side of hardware so that they can go beyond what has been done and look for new ways to do things that are still feasible with materials and mechanisms available or soon to be available.

So while I would agree that your standard maintenance and installation person could very well learn on the job or as an apprenticeship, I think it is much more important that development and research people get a firmer grounding in theory.

In addition, if everyone in development is working with the same set of theories, than when they make an advance on those theories it is easier for others to understand or if they run into a new technology they will already have a starting point to learn it from instead of having to unlearn half of what they new about another technology first.
When you learn programming from the general, theoretical angle first, you have a solid basis to learn any language. When you start with one language then you learn the idiosyncracies of that language without even realizing it and then have to start a new language almost from scratch.

If I had my choice, I would have been taught old latin when I was growing up, becaue that would have given me the foundation, or roots, to a lot more languages than English has.

-Tarwn

_{01010100 01101001 01100101 01110010 01101110 01101111 01101011 00101110 01100011 01101111 01101101}
^{29 3K 10 3D 3L 3J 3K 10 32 35 10 3E 39 33 35 10 3K 3F 10 38 31 3M 35 10 36 3I 35 35 10 3K 39 3D 35 10 1Q 19}
Do you know how hot your computer is running at home? I do

http://www.tiernok.com/hscripts/systemp.asp

 

[dogbert2]

98% of all people in I.T. who DEAL with hardware on a daily basis will never wind up designing it, and usually have no desire to. A I.T. hardware job usually entails getting the gear installed, applying any firmware updates, and performing periodic checks (I do this as part of system admin duties).

The same could be said to a number of other fields inside of I.T. as well.

Another thing is that it seems the technical schools due seem to have a better placement ratio than 4 year colleges or universities, but I've always thought that most students should earn a associate's degree first, and then proceed to a bachelor's after they wind up getting their feet wet in the industry (but that's me).

 

[SemperFiDownUnda]

I have no problem with alternate learning styles. Having a 4 year degree doesn't mean a whole lot to me in IT. I personally have almost 3 years of accounting under my belt because when I was in the Marine Corps I was looking at going into the FBI. I have no degree or even college coarses in IT. I look around the office I'm in now and I see a good 25% of the programmers with college degrees in IT as useless. Most of the others are completely average. There are about 3 people here that seem really clued in and 2 of us are contractors. Some of the best programmers I know have no formal training.

A degree is supposed to be an indication that an individual is in some way capable but we know this isn't true. So agian I point at the problem with the lack of skills in a company as being the companies fault with regard to hiring and/or training. You can't really help that someone that does a hello world program in vb might call themself a programmer. Its for the company hiring to screen that out.

 

[edfair]

For programmers, let them sit at a computer and write a specific application or fragment that accomplishes a related job?
How about giving a tech a pile of parts and see if he/she makes an operating system? Maybe give them the wrong M/B manual to see how they handel reality?
For an accountant, ask them to create a chart of accounts for the business based on what they know about it?

I'm a tech, so I wouldn't be afraid of the parts, since I make piles of them all the time, but the covers always give me problems.

Ed Fair
Any advice I give is my best judgement based on my interpretation of the facts you supply. Help increase my knowledge by providing some feedback, good or bad, on any advice I have given.

 

[SemperFiDownUnda]

Covers? Don't you just take them off the computer and never put them back on?

 

[edfair]

Always put them back on, even with most of the screws. Or a screw equvalent. (thumbscrew for those not in the trade)
I haven't left covers off since the SWTP6800 and the molex problem.

I hate to pick one up and have the guts slide out and hit the floor. Tends to break things.

Ed Fair
Any advice I give is my best judgement based on my interpretation of the facts you supply. Help increase my knowledge by providing some feedback, good or bad, on any advice I have given.

 

[mjinks61]

A degree is no more than an indication the individual possibly has the potential to be good in the industry. It mearly shows a root level of understanding, and the aptitude for learning it.
Give me a non-certified individual that can get the job done quickly, and correctly anytime.
They are usually the ones who are doing it because they enjoy it. And the ones who enjoy their work, usually do a better job of it, and are more likely to keep up with the newest changes, because it is fun to them.

Just my opinion


Good luck, and Happy Computing

 

[CajunCenturion]

A degree is no more than an indication the individual possibly has the potential to be good in the industry. It mearly shows a root level of understanding, and the aptitude for learning it. And the discipline and the dedication to complete a four+ year program. The ability to manage their time and resources over that period of time to get the job done. Although there are certainly no guarantees, but when a person invests that much into themselves to achieve that objective and succeds, then you've got a little more than just an indication of potential.

Good Luck
--------------
As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein

 

[dogbert2]

Well, I guess I am the exception to the rule, since I didn't complete a degree (associate's) until I had put in more than 20 years into Information Technology.

However, earning a degree does take time, I just wish they would modernize most IT/IS/CS degrees to the 21st century.

 

[flapeyre]

What stopped me from finishing my CS degree was calculus, which I never could grasp (tried 3 times). When I ran out of money (hint: don't charge tuition on your Visa), I bit the bullet, and went to technical school (this particular one was free because the course was subsidized by a company looking to hire the sudents - however, they hired the instructor, and left us to fend for ourselves).

Got hired as a programmer after 3 months of (painful) unemployment. I have not looked back. I have no certifications of any kind. I just marked the start of my eighth year with my current employer (hard to believe)!!




"When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the Earth with your eyes turned skyward, for here you have been, and there you will always long to return."

--Leonardo da Vinci

 

[guestgulkan]

I'm sure if there were 1000 replies in this thread, the issue of certification V experience/self taught/non-certified would still be inconclusive and will remain a bone of some contention.

However, I do believe that once you get a job/position then it is all down to ** YOU** as a person how it works out.
If you use the 'bull in China shop' approach ( i'm wonderful, blah, blah, my certificates blah, blah, ..I was to work for NASA blah, blah) than I guarantee you will have problems especially with your peers and just create friction within the workplace.

I think people with good 'people skill' who can do the job whether or not they have a 'formal' certificate or not are worth their weight in gold.

 

[CajunCenturion]

I think you're correct guestgulkan. The education debate has been going on for many many years, even before the existence of IT. We can certainly have fun discussing our opinions on the matter, but no one is going to change anyone's mind. Each of us has based our own opinion on our individual experiences, and to be truthful, our wishes and desires, and so it's what we believe and will stand behind it, and try to prove it to be true.

There are many paths that one can take down their career from being completely self-taught to formally educated Ph.D. and scores of paths in between. No one can say what path is best for you. Each of us has to look at our career intentions, where we want to be next month, next year, 5 years, and 10+ years down then read. Then we need to factor in our economic situation, our family situation and their goals, education opportunities available to us and put all that together. Finally, do some research to gain an understanding of what our chosen environment/profession will expect of us, and then choose choose the path we think will best work for us and our family. After that, the biggest player is the individual.

Good Luck
--------------
As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein

 

[palbano]

What I found most interesting in interviewing recent graduates was how much they knew about areas that are not covered in course material. Most of them think they can write a compiler, but if they are applying for a position in C++ Windows development, how much do they know about writing Windows applications?

Many CS programs are sorely lacking in any meaningful material. All CS courses after my first year covered subjects I had already learned, and the majority of students in them struggled tremendously! We see that all time from students here at Tek-Tips in the C/C++ forums. Indeed, knowledge beyond course material is much more telling then the fact that someone stuck it out long enough to get a degree. I would much rather work with someone that has experience beyond course material even if they have yet to attain their degree. This indicates a desire and drive to understand the real world development environment that they intend to work within, that is not indicated simply by attaining a degree. I will pass on anyone that has a degree but has no experiential knowledge of the technology defined in a job description they are applying for.


-pete

 

[CajunCenturion]

palbano - The maningulness of the material provided in the CS curriculum is directly proportional to the enviroment in which you're ask to apply that information. In many cases, as you said, it will be meaningless, but in many other cass, the reverse is equally true. The CS field is so broad and diverse, that it's difficult for any of us to make qualitative assessments in this regard.

I'm not at all disagreeing with your statment about the knowledge in areas not covered in various courses, but I am curious as to how you know that. Have you attended the same courses, or done the same assignments given out in those courses? Many CS curriculum also have special project credit courses where students are encouraged to study and do project work in areas of interest.

And I do agree, knowledge about material outside of coursework is a very good metric about desire and interest, but then, equally telling is the discipline to stick it out - to finish the job they started, and that directly applies to real-world development. How many time have you been tasked to complete a job someone else started but couldn't find a way to finish the job?

Good Luck
--------------
As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein

 

[edfair]

Can only speak from about 2 years teaching at a technical school, and that about 10 years ago, but until the instructors and management have some relevant experience in the real world the focus of instruction will remain on what the hardware and software designers tell the schools what their product will do and not the real story of what it can be used for.
As it stands, IT is taught to willing students by people with education degrees and no concept of how it can all fit together. If the schools would start hiring based on proven abilities rather than certifications, we might get somewhere.

Ed Fair
Any advice I give is my best judgement based on my interpretation of the facts you supply. Help increase my knowledge by providing some feedback, good or bad, on any advice I have given.

 

[Tarwn]

I can't agree with that. Our CS faculty comprised of:
Head, Networking - Ex-Contractor, Networking specialist
AI - Contract work for military (missile guidance, detection, tracking, etc)
Logic/ASM - Designer with his name on many pieces of hardware - left couple years before I graduated
OOP/special classes/basic classes - Ex embedded chip programmer, still concentrates on DSP
Basic and Distributed Computing - ex-contractor
Adv Web (part time) - contractor/consultant (Perl, JSP, PHP, etc)
Security (part time) - ex-fbi
Soft. Eng - ex mechanical engineer who went back for computer
etc

I can only think of one CS faculty member we had that didn't do something else in the field (or related field) before teaching, and he wasn't tenured (yet, never know).

-Tarwn



_{01010100 01101001 01100101 01110010 01101110 01101111 01101011 00101110 01100011 01101111 01101101}
^{29 3K 10 3D 3L 3J 3K 10 32 35 10 3E 39 33 35 10 3K 3F 10 38 31 3M 35 10 36 3I 35 35 10 3K 39 3D 35 10 1Q 19}
Do you know how hot your computer is running at home? I do

http://www.tiernok.com/hscripts/systemp.asp

 

[palbano]

>> Have you attended the same courses, or done the same
>> assignments given out in those courses?

Of course not. I was generalizing based on my own experience and the information i have obtained from interviewing candidates. Sorry i did not make that clear?

Also, note that i was not disagreeing with anything previously stated, but was commenting on what i found more (most) interesting in recent graduates. I certainly agree that you can tell something about the fact that someone managed to acquire the degree, and in general (not always), quite a bit more than just sticking it out. Often a candidate’s education encompasses areas that span beyond the technical proficiencies of software in ways that are important within business and/or team environments.


-pete

 

[skiflyer]

Tarwn

I'm unclear, are you referring to a technical school as edfair was, or was edfair referring to both technical schools and universities?

-Rob

 

[Tarwn]

I may have understood, I thought edfair was speaking of schools in general, if I misunderstood I apologize for adding yet another post to this already long thread

-Tarwn

_{01010100 01101001 01100101 01110010 01101110 01101111 01101011 00101110 01100011 01101111 01101101}
^{29 3K 10 3D 3L 3J 3K 10 32 35 10 3E 39 33 35 10 3K 3F 10 38 31 3M 35 10 36 3I 35 35 10 3K 39 3D 35 10 1Q 19}
Do you know how hot your computer is running at home? I do

http://www.tiernok.com/hscripts/systemp.asp

 

[edfair]

I was speaking of some technical schools and high schools where I live and where I have had professional contacts in one way or another. Mostly staffed with professional educators who have been certified as to know how to teach but don't have the critical mind functions to learn what to teach.
There are good schools. I've seen some. And there are good teachers. Just not enough.



Ed Fair
Any advice I give is my best judgement based on my interpretation of the facts you supply. Help increase my knowledge by providing some feedback, good or bad, on any advice I have given.