Golf Words That Must Go 4

Although the title of the article - Golf Words That Must Go - suggests it's all about golf terms, it's not. I think most here will enjoy the article.


--------------
Good Luck
To get the most from your Tek-Tips experience, please read
FAQ181-2886
As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein

 

[ascotta]

... and the USA wins the Ryder Cup ..." they just must be struck

[blue] A perspective from the other side!![/blue]

Cheers
Scott

 

[LNBruno]

I'll take a whiskey-coke....... make that a double!

Nah - make mine a double and a half: double the whiskey and half the coke!

< M!ke >
[small]Insert Politically Incorrect Quote Here[/small]

 

[BobRodes]

<I had two aces. [etc][etc]
You guys are all SUCH liars. I never had one, and I'm not afraid to admit it.

<Would you say "There are no Stratfords-on-Avon in the United States"?
Yes, I would, probably because of my British schooling...

<"Tigers Wood"?
Nope, for obvious reasons.

<two 7-ups, or two 7s-up>
The former, also for obvious reasons.

Ok, so there are some ambiguities in the rule. If "hole in one" has the sense of a compound word that happens to be hyphenated (as in "7-up"), as opposed to a noun with an adjectival clause, then it would be correct to append the s at the end and say "hole-in-ones". The case for this can be made by applying the possessive: "The hole-in-one's appeal is that it is such a difficult thing to accomplish" is obviously correct. On the other hand, I lean towards using "holes-in-one", personally.

 

[CajunCenturion]

==> If "hole in one" has the sense of a compound word that happens to be hyphenated (as in "7-up"),
'Hole-in-one' is a compound noun, and it's hyphenated because you're supposed to hyphenate compound nouns. '7-up', on the other hand, is not a compound noun, but rather, a proper noun (as is Stratfords-on-Avon), and as such, is not subject to the standard plural and possessive rules.

==> as opposed to a noun with an adjectival clause,
I think you could make a case for "in one" being a prepositional phrase, and although you could claim 'one' to be an adjective, it doesn't modify the noun 'hole', but rather, it modifies the implied noun 'stroke' or 'shot'.

==> The case for this can be made by applying the possessive: "The hole-in-one's appeal is that it is such a difficult thing to accomplish" is obviously correct.
Unfortunately, it's not that simple. The rule for applying the possessive to a compound noun is different than the rule for the applying the plural to a compound noun. For compound nouns, the possessive should be applied to the last individual noun, and you're correct, that would be hole-in-one's appeal. However, the plural is not applied to the last noun, but it's applied to the dominant noun, which in this case I believe is 'hole'. I agree that the correct plural is 'holes-in-one'.


--------------
Good Luck
To get the most from your Tek-Tips experience, please read
FAQ181-2886
As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein

 

[mjldba]

Looks like "Holes-in-one" gets the nod from this AP journalist :

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20895667/

 

[BobRodes]

Well, CajunCenturion, your points of view (note: neither "points-of-view" nor "point-of-views" ) are certainly arguable. I take your point about the difference between the possessive case and the other cases.

<'7-up', on the other hand, is not a compound noun, but rather, a proper noun (as is Stratfords-on-Avon)
Well, I'm unconvinced that one would order "three sevens-up" and not "three seven-ups" at a restaurant. I certainly wouldn't. Given your "Stratfords-on-Avon" it would seem that you disagree.

<you could claim 'one' to be an adjective, it doesn't modify the noun 'hole', but rather, it modifies the implied noun 'stroke' or 'shot'.

However, I don't think I agree with you here. I don't claim 'one' to be an adjective (although it usually is). I claim "in-one" to be an adjectival clause (which is of course a form of prepositional phrase), which taken as a unit, modifies the noun "hole." The fact that there is an implication of "one shot" doesn't strike me as relevant; we're just leaving out the word "shot" because we all know what it is. One may argue all the same points with the term "hole-in-one-shot" that I have here with "hole-in-one."

I see "artist-in-residence" as exactly analogous to "hole-in-one" in this regard. We say "artists-in-residence", we say "artist-in-residence's", and there is also no other implied noun that "residence" modifies. "in-residence" modifies the noun "artist", and is an adjectival clause.

Bob

 

[CajunCenturion]

==> Well, I'm unconvinced that one would order "three sevens-up" and not "three seven-ups" at a restaurant. I certainly wouldn't. Given your "Stratfords-on-Avon" it would seem that you disagree.
Disagree with what?

As I said in my previous post, proper nouns, such as 7-up and Stratfords-on-Avon, are not subject to normal plural and possessive rules. However, even if you do apply the normal plural rule, the 's' would go on the dominant noun -- not the first noun, but the dominant noun -- which in the case of '7-up' is could easily be 'up'. As far as the name of the town, I would suggest that 'Stratfords' is the dominant noun, and although it would require some etymological research to verify, I wouldn't be surprise to learn that the 's' is actually a possessive 's', and not a plural 's'. But again, when you're dealing with proper nouns, the standard rules do not necessarily apply.

==> I don't claim 'one' to be an adjective (although it usually is). I claim "in-one" to be an adjectival clause (which is of course a form of prepositional phrase), which taken as a unit, modifies the noun "hole."
There are a couple of difficulties with that interpretation.

First of all, it fails the adjective test. Any adjective must be able to immediately precede the noun it modifies without changing the meaning. 'Hole in one' and 'in one hole' have two entirely different meanings, therefore, 'in one' cannot be an adjective modifying 'hole'. If 'in one' is an adjective phrase, then it must be modifying a different noun. In this case, the noun being modified is the implied 'stroke'.

Secondly, if "in-one" is considered to be an adjectival phrase modifying "hole", there there is no question that the plural should be "holes-in-one" because you never put the plural on the adjective. You put the plural on the noun.

==> One may argue all the same points with the term "hole-in-one-shot" that I have here with "hole-in-one."
I'm not sure that's the case. Can the preposition phrase 'in one shot' function as an adjective to the noun 'hole'? The adjective test yields 'in one shot hole'. Is the meaning the same? It's awkward, but I submit the meaning is the same.

Now let's try applying the plural to 'hole-in-one-shot'.
'Hole-in-one-shots' ==> That's contradictory to the intended meaning.
'Hole-in-ones-shot' ==> That's grammatically correct, but in this case, 'ones' functions as a possessive pronoun and completely changes the meaning.
'Holes-in-one-shot' ==> I think I'll take this one.

I think this also illustrates why you don't attach the plural to the adjective phrase, but to the dominant noun.

==> I see "artist-in-residence" as exactly analogous to "hole-in-one" in this regard.
They are analogous in the sense that the plural goes on the dominant noun: artists-in-residence and holes-in-one. But it's not analogous in that the phrase 'in-residence' passes the stand-alone adjective test, but 'in-one' by itself does not.


--------------
Good Luck
To get the most from your Tek-Tips experience, please read
FAQ181-2886
As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein

 

[Skie]

To further muck up the waters, what is the possessive of holes-in-one?

Two holes-in-one's appeal is that it rarely occurs.

Two holes-in-ones' appeal is that it rarely occurs.

 

[CajunCenturion]

As was said in an earlier post, for compound nouns, the possessive should be applied to the last individual noun.

Two holes-in-one's appeal is that it rarely occurs.


--------------
Good Luck
To get the most from your Tek-Tips experience, please read
FAQ181-2886
As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein

 

[BobRodes]

<Disagree with what?

Ok, I see what you're saying now. Thank you for explaining.

<However, I don't think I agree with you here.
I changed my mind. I think we're really saying the same thing.

<etc.

Actually, I've never meant to suggest that I don't agree. I find "holes-in-one" to be correct also. Rather, it seems to me that you are making my points for me, and improving on them in several respects. For example, when I say "I claim 'in-one' to be an adjectival clause (which is of course a form of prepositional phrase), which taken as a unit, modifies the noun 'hole.'", you've gone to the trouble of explaining precisely why I see it this way. When I say "I see 'artist-in-residence' as exactly analogous to "hole-in-one" in this regard" you go to the trouble of elaborating the regard in which I see it as analogous, and pointing out the way in which I do not.

So, thanks for going to the trouble, and a star for your well-conceived analysis.

Bob