** Dell Computers - No Longer Networkable ** 1

[markjrees]

A client of ours purchased 4 Dell Dimension 3000 computers and asked us to network them in a peer to peer workgroup environment. the 4 workstations were running XP Home.

We arrived on site and began networking the 4 systems. We simply plugged the four computers into an 8 port switch and joined each computer into the same workgroup (called Workgroup). Each computer had an ip address (192.168.254.1 through to 5).

As always to verify connectivity we issued the Ping command from dos however we got 4 x destination unreachable messages. none of the workstations could successfully ping any of the other workstations.

we swapped both the switch and the network cables with known working ones but still no connectivity could be established. We even went back to basics and ran the XP networking wizard. no joy.

We called Dell support (india) who were no use at all. We're MCSE's and they knew next to nothing about anything.

In the end we had to put the problem down to a hardware fault and as Dell will not confirm this our client has basically cancelled the credit card payment so Dell don't get their money.

Anyway. We've since spoken to our sales contact at Dell and it looks like they may be modifying the Dimension range of computers so that they cannot be networked (in a workgroup environment). Possibly a hardware modification.

Either way we couldn't get the 4 dimensions to network and it's something we do (with other models/makes) on a daily basis.

has anyone else had a similar encounter?

http://www.accountantjokes.co.uk

http://www.markjrees.co.uk

http://www.mjrcomputersolutions.co.uk

http://www.mjrfm.co.uk

 

[TonHu]

Guessing you have XP with SP2, try turning off the (default ON) firewall, and see if that helps?

HTH
TonHu

 

[markjrees]

we turned the firewall off as soon as we found that we had a problem.

wasnt the firewall

http://www.accountantjokes.co.uk

http://www.markjrees.co.uk

http://www.mjrcomputersolutions.co.uk

http://www.mjrfm.co.uk

 

[bcastner]

Download the Windows 2003 Resource kit and install it. You need the NTRIGHTS.EXE program from the kit:

http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/...69-57ff-4ae7-96ee-b18c4790cffd&displaylang=en

Then from a CMD box, type the following three lines:

net user guest /active:yes
ntrights +r SeNetworkLogonRight -u Guest
ntrights -r SeDenyNetworkLogonRight -u Guest

 

[markjrees]

on Windows XP Home?? that's ludicrous!

out of the box windows xp home should be networkable - through the xp home networking wizard.

downloading and running other programs just to establish a workgroup network connection should not involve that sort of work.

we will however try it on friday when our own 4 dimensions arrive

http://www.accountantjokes.co.uk

http://www.markjrees.co.uk

http://www.mjrcomputersolutions.co.uk

http://www.mjrfm.co.uk

 

[bcastner]

Some OEM installations of XP Home are missing the ACE for a Guest logon authority.

As XP Home does not contain the utility secpol.msc, you have no other way to enable this key right other than use NTRIGHTS.EXE found in the Resource Kit.

In most cases running the Network Wizard will enable the rights. If not, my fix above will enable the rights for Guest and permit Simple File Sharing networking to succeed.

 

[pweegar]

DELL Dimension 3000's ARE most certainly networkable. I'm on a new Dell 3000 as I type this (running XP Pro). The company I work for (A LARGE company in Phoenix) buys a number of these pc's with little or no problems.

HOWEVER, I have seen pc's not connect to the network, or can not be remotely admisitered.

Try this from a command prompt: nrtsh firewall set portopening tcp 445 smb enable

This MAY help. You also may want to check Microsoft's website for further help.

 

[agrappe]

Since you said that none of the PCs can ping each other, it's probably not a Windows issue. Try setting your subnet mask to 255.255.255.0 and your default gateway to the IP of your switch. This will send all packets to the switch that will be able to send them to the correct destination via it's ARP table.

 

[aquias]

My first question, are you connecting to a switch or a hub/switch?

If you're connecting to a switch then have you verified that the settings on the switch are configured properly for this environment?

You said you replaced the cabling, did you replace the switch that connected all of these systems to verify that IT isn't bad?

Beyond that, it looks like you're getting some solid software advice already.

 

[bcastner]

aquias,

The ping issue bothers me a lot too.

To my mind a ping issue is either a firewall issue, or hardware.

Often disabling a firewall (McAfee, Zone Alarm and Norton come to mind) does nothing. You either have to configure the firewall to allow ICMP and Netbios traffic specificly on your LAN subnet as Trusted traffic, or uninstall it completely. The "hidden" firewall components of some Antivirus products can be an issue, as you are unaware of their firewall component. Pc-Illan and Kasperskey are both high on my lists of "hidden" firewall components in the AV software, although there are others.

I thought your suggestion that it is a switch issue perfectly apt as something that needs to be tested.

My discussion above of the failure in some recent OEM XP Home installations to allow networking is based on a very lengthy discussion of the issue in the private MS-MVP networking newsgroup. While poster markjrees considers the notion "ludicrous", the problem is a real one at the moment, and my comments above are an effective remedy.

To me there are two issues:

. resolve the ping problem
. resolve any lingering Windows Workgroup networking issues

If Dell in this instance is to be blamed for anything, my guess would be an ACE issue with the account Guest in the current XP Home image used to roll-out the Workstations. But the notion that it is a hardware issue with the Dell's to prevent Windows Workgroup networking, I find it hard to believe. There may be a bad batch of network adapters, but there is no deliberate decision to cripple the hardware.

 

[aquias]

Bill,

I've gotta agree with you. I've run into the "Ping" issue with dialer software installing it's own ICF under Network Neighborhood (thanks for reminding me), this could be causing an issue as well.

Actually, you bring up a good point about disabling firewalls not really disabling firewalls. If there is any software driven firewalls on this system it may be a very good test to set them to "allow all" and see if the response varies.

The primary issue here is the "Ping issue". Once that's resolved then the rest can be tackled.

In my mind, if this isn't a firewall issue, it is then a hardware issue with
A) Bad batch of NIC's
B) The switch is misconfigured or bad (More likely in this instance).

Yes, I'm a hardware/networking junkie.

But I was unaware of the problem you specified (till I read this thread) and as a "moderate" poster here I've learned not to discount what's been posted by anyone.

My next question for you, is there a way (Beyond the behavior that markjrees is exhibiting) that the problem with the Guest account can be tested for? Or is this something where you just apply the fix and see if the problem goes away?

Bill, I'd also be interested if you had any further information on that problem as well (I'm an information junkie and it sounds as if this specific issue dives pretty deep into XP).

As for Dell disabling the ability to network systems...I just don't see them doing this. With the growing popularity of file sharing, home networks, and gaming this would seem to be a counter productive strategy to sell systems. It would, in effect, force an entire slice of the market to another manufacturer. I've already moved from using Dells in the office due to the proprietary hardware setup they have (140ish for a 256MB DIMM vs 65ish for an HP).

 

[bcastner]

If these were XP Professional OEM installs, a Start, Run, secpol.msc would show and allow a change in settings. But the original poster is talking about XP Home OEM.

Other than that I am not certain how to show or reveal ACE rights settings. These are fundamental rights that are usually under the control of Windows by your Group assignment.

Because of NDA agreements I cannot duplicate here the discussion for the last month about OEM installs of XP Home in the MS-MVP Windows Networking newsgroup, other than the results of some serious poking around in the OS I wrote earlier above. The always solid Steve Winograd noticed the issue first, and many MS-MVPs added suggestions until a satisfactory resolution was reached. Those results I summarized in my first post above.

I recently had a user with a brand new OEM XP Pro install where they could not change the Date/Time! Using NTRIGHTS.EXE sorted that issue. I have absolutely no idea why these OEM images are so crippled, and like you, I do not believe this is a deliberate effort by the vendors.

It is just a big screwup.

Which leads into your second theme: the ping issue. I agree 100% with what you wrote above. "Disabling" many firewall products still leaves them active. Either setup the firewall correctly, including ICMP traffic, or uninstall them. The native XP SP2 firewall should be sufficient to protect you until you get everything else sorted.

And yes, if the ping issue is not a firewall issue, there is something wrong on the hardware. And this is decidedly not a deliberate attempt by Dell or anyone else to cripple Windows Networking.

It could just be a bad batch of boards. Given that all the machines are likely from the same manufacturing lot in this instance, bad hardware seems a good starting point.

A star for you sir, as I thought you quite elegantly restated the key issues.

Bill Castner
MS-MVP Windows Networking

 

[aquias]

I fully understand about NDA's, I don't much like them though . I just wasn't certain if Microsoft had posted anything further about this. Thankie for what clarification you could provide.

As for the OEM's being screwy, again, it just takes one bad batch or a small flaw in an image to get through and it can affect thousands of people, especially hitting this time of year (Not only Christmas but people are generally spending whatever is leftover in their corporate budget prior to losing it to the new year).

As for the star, thankie! But really anything I put up there was inspired by the other people in this thread. The best ideas come out when people do "this", talk and express an honest point of view and opinion things. It's why I like posting here so much, there's little to none of the "Snobbish" IT behavior that I've seen...just about everywhere.

 

[bcastner]

aquias,

I do not like NDAs either, but you can live with them. In this intance if I rewrite and summarize with my own pen some serious thinking in a very long thread about handling ACE issue with OEM XP Home, nobody is going to have an issue.

The only thing that bothers me is that I wish I could quote and attribute the original thoughts by such fellow MVPs as Ken England, Steve Winograd, Hans-Georg Michna and others. But I cannot unless they post again in the public newsroups.

The issue with XP Home OEM is that you do not have, as does Pro, a native utility to change fundamental NT rights assignments. If you run the Network Wizard, it will make the provisioning in most cases. If you do the network install by hand you may face a rights issue on the Guest account under current XP Home OEM images.

But to the important point:
A very warm welcome to acquias to the XP Forum of Tek-tips

a final note:
You can tell me that a suggestion did not work, or was misguided. But suggesting a post was "ludicrous" offends me.

 

[aquias]

I suppose, I'm just a stickler, I find it hard to believe that there isn't a way to view user security on a XP Home machine. It seems like there's a backdoor for everything else in Windows I have a problem believing there isn't some way to at least bring up a view of assigned rights (I know, I know, I've read it here and searched for it on my own, it doesn't exist at present). It just bothers me that security is put into place without access to a set of tools to fully administer and troubleshoot it.

And Bill, you give credit where it's due. Whether or not their words are used verbatim (gah...spellchecker, add one to the boards!) they are acknowledged, it's about all people can ask for.

Thanks for the welcome!

 

[bcastner]

In 99.23% of the cases, ACE rights are not an issue. The only time in my memory was fairly fancy requirements to grant permissions for limited users.

Essentially, this is not intended to be a regular consumer issue. The OEM imaging as discussed above has made it one. Again, a screwup.

Microsoft has (in my limited memory) since the Resource Kit for Win2k offered NTRIGHTS.EXE to allow modification of ACE priviliges. The Microsoft Scripting Center offers several WSH scripting offerings as models to control this as well. I do not think anyone should have to worry about ACE permissions, and in particular, those permissions under XP Home. Somebody screwed up somewhere in the imagin, as this should have never been a problem.

Under XP Pro you can Start, Run, secpol.msc and create as much damage as you might like.

Under XP Home, you have to repair any inadequacies in the image by using the Resource Kit tool NTRIGHTS.EXE from either the Win2k Resource Kit or the Windows 2002 Server Resource kit.

Final thought: I contribute a lot on Tek-Tips because of the professionalism of the other members. Your description of your reasons for participating here match mine.

I hope you visit more often.

Bill

 

[aquias]

True and I understand the necessity for Microsoft to levy different levels of products to play to the different user bases.

But, it's the times like these that I'd like to see a plug in of some kind to assist in correcting this issue. Having non-technical users go in and start running scripts or playing with any kind of command line just isn't fair or safe. I'm certain most of us can vouche for people we've worked with who thought they knew something and found out the hard way they really didn't. These are the people that problems that like this will create havoc for (along with many of their friends and families).

I'm just suprised (whether it be command line or GUI) that there's no way to verify permissions. As the "Just in case" clause.

But I understand that, given the amount of coding that goes into a Windows package I am impressed by how quickly some kind of solution is, generally offered.

Again, my thoughts of how it should be or what solution should be offered versus the reality of cost vs functionality vs profit.

I'd like to think most people share that viewpoint. It makes the community a much better place and more fun to visit.

 

[bcastner]

Can you imagine the havoc that would be created if my notes in: thread779-962002
were widely read?

No, no GUI utility.

 

[aquias]

Not necessarily a GUI like secpol.msc, but at least a viewer to identify exactly what the problem is so when people talk to someone technical, they know exactly what to grab and don't run random scripts, possibly causing more harm then good.

But...your point s well taken.

 

[bcastner]

http://www.michna.com/kb/wxnet.htm