CCNA -> Job 15

[CCNA2]

Hi, I currently work with servicing computer hardware and I took the CCNA to have better chances in getting a job in networking. My probem is that I have little to none in practical experience. Would you recommend that I went for more certifications, maybe Microsoft certifications, to give me better chances?

It would be nice to hear from someone who works with networking and hear about what the job requires of you.
Is it enough to have Cisco certifications if one wants to work at a company site and not drive around servicing others. Or does one need more competences like in Microsoft products?

Thanks

Thomas

 

[wacobd]

Unfortunately with the Job market like it is today, you will probably need some experience before you can get into the the networking field (I know here in Texas alot of computer people that were let go are now working in retail sales (not just computer retail, I have one friend that works for a clothing store because that was the only job he could find)or just trying to find something somewhere). I am afraid that if you show up at a prospective employers with a CCNA and a MCSE they will think that you are a "paper" certification person since you do not have any experience.

Keep you chin up and continue doing your best and you will make it. It took me 6 years before I broke into the networking field after doing computer operations and Help Desk work.

 

[CCNA2]

Thanks for your reply. I think I will try to get a job in a companys IT department and take it from there.

I am in doubt however about whether I should continue the Cisco track, or if I should head for a MS cert. Wouldn't most employers prefer a kind of all-round knowledge? Or are there jobs for people working almost only with routers, switches and firewalls? And I don't mean driving out servicing, since I am not interested in that.

 

[wacobd]

It can never hurt to get the MS cert. I will warn you that is a hard road (I got mine 2 years ago and I thought I knew MS products, but found I knew the real world stuff not the MS stuff).

I hold both MCSE and CCNA and I am working on my CCNP now. I figure that way no matter where I land in life I will have some knowledge in both areas.

 

[amiak]

I have had my CCNP since 2001 and I work in healthcare

 

[wacobd]

Hey there Amiak,

Is that a Cisco Certified Nursing Professional? I

 

[bierhunter]

I would keep both ms and cisco. I went ccna then mcse then ccnp. The nice thing is that knowing the systems and the network allows you to efficiently troubleshoot all aspects of the infrastructure all the way to the user.

Also, security these days is big. Setting up a LAN isn't good enough anymore. Now you need firewalls, DMZs, acces-lists.... As a tech, some people think..."ah, that's not my job to worry about." As a manager you think, "If we can't do that, we have to PAY someone to do it."

Now...what if you can stand up and say "I can do all of that."

You not only understand how the network works, but how the clients and servers communicate on the network. That makes you marketable. That's also how I jumped from workstation support to sysadmin to engineer to managing the department. Not over night of course. It takes time to build the experience. But by being able to work every position in the IT department, I can oversee every position in the IT department. And, my techs respect me; because they know I've been there.

When looking for education (certs or degrees), think 5-years down the road. Where do you want to end up. Repairing computers, routers, and switches...or leading of team of people doing that.

Your certs and degrees won't necessarily get you a new job right away, but they will open future opportunities for growth. In today's IT world, you need to be flexible in your skills.

Also...keep that Cisco cert. I know too many server admins who don't know jack about networking. They have a problem and don't know where to start troubleshooting...layer-1, 2, 3, or what? They're clueless. In a multi-server Internet connected enterprise network environment, you need to know more than just client/server operations. One big thing that Cisco cert will teach you is OSI and TCP/IP. Learn those. Eat, sleep, drink, sex, etc those two things; and you'll go far. Combine that with a network OS and you'll really go far.

 

[CCNA2]

Thanks bierhunter, that helped alot. I am currently studying Secur, one of the exams for the CCSP which I am interested in. But I'm not sure if I should halt this and begin a MS cert.

 

[wacobd]

Bierhunter has some great points there. I have both my MCSE and CCNA and working on my CCNP. I do not work with the Cisco gear here at work, but as a result of that training, I am able to better "argue my point" if I think a problem lies within our backbone or internal network instead of with the server. Cross training is great, who knows you get a job where you are the Cisco, Microsoft and "errand boy" (don't laugh I had a job like that once

 

[Whoheard]

CCNA2...I am a Program Manager for a small IT company. I worked my way up through all the BS you are now contemplating. I have seen many different products come and go over the years; and, the certifictions keep getting more refined into very specific areas to a point of complete saturation.

All this leads to a person chasing certifications in search of a dream job promised by the certification. It was easier a few years back. Today is a whole different story.

Stop chasing certs and go for a degree. It is a great sub for experience. It sets you apart and will bust down the door.

FYI...
I can tell you this. I will not hire a person with only a beginner cert; and MCSE and CCNA are beginner certs. I would not even hire a MCSE with a CCNA; unless I really wanted him to be at the bottom of the ladder = low pay. He/she just does not have the experience needed to understand the real networking world. I have seen too many people get pushed through these camps and what not and not know jack about what to do the first time a server crashes or a router takes a crap.

Besides, if you know your stuff, and are on top of your game, you can easily BS your way through an interview.



I know what I know and that's all I know. What I don't know I'll find out.

 

[wacobd]

I have to disagree with Wholeheard on part of the post.

Why would you not hire a MCSE or CCNA? Most of us with a lot of experience and skills sometimes do not have the time to get the "Advanced" certifications. I am working on my CCNP but it may be a year or more before I can finish it off due to work, home, professional, church activities and the such.

Besides, if you hired someone who BS'ed their way through an Interview, that would be a whole lot worse (IMO) than hiring someone with a "beginner cert" who should at least be able to do basic troubleshooting, configuring, installing and the such.

Now where we agree:

A formal education is a must (at least an Associates). Not only do you get the "Technical" education, but you also get the other needed fundemantals (English, logic, psychology and the such). One of the hardest jobs us "Computer Geeks" (as we are lovingly called sometimes), is to use Psychology on the end users to make them feel better, use Logic to troubleshoot problems. English to socument systems, and so on.

Bottom line is to do what is best for you (not the answer you wanted to hear I am sure). I for one do not care for certifications but seek the knowledge to better my understanding of the field I choose to make a living in (The certifications I hold is because my company felt that they needed some kind of certified employees). If the employers in your area are certification happy go that route and don't look back, If it is to have an alphabet behind your name, that is OK to, but realize that turns some people off.

Happy Holidays Everyone!

[Frosty]

 

[Whoheard]

Why wouldn't I hire a MCSE or CCNA? Simple. The cert is worthless without something else to accompany it.

Let's look at his original question, "Would you recommend that I went for more certifications, maybe Microsoft certifications, to give me better chances?" He has a CCNA and "little to none experience." I see no other certs. I assume he is looking for more money along with that networking job; not a LAN Admin job. He is asking about a Microsoft cert. Is it enough? No!

Here is what I am looking for when that person applies. Does he understand: DHCP, DNS, WINS, HSRP, BOOTP Forwarding, MS, Novell, UNIX, DHCP Relay Agents, Cabling, VLAN, Layer 3 switching, LMI, HDLC, LAN and WAN Protocols, channeling, trunking, subnetting, ACL's, etc...; and the effects of all those when they stop working properly? I am gonna ask questions from each of those areas, and more, and look for the correct answers.

The more you know, the further you will go.

To put it nicely, as a manager looking for a qualified person, its none of my concern why you don't have a more advanced certification or degree. And, I don't have time to wait for you to do it. I am going to look at what is in front of me on your resume at the time. If it does not have the most qualifications for my needs, then I am not gonna bother looking at it any further. If you don't want to get yourself qualified, then why should I pay you to get it. And, I have seen way to many paper MCSE's and CCNA's to know that those certs are not enough to get a person started. It is only a beginning cert.

As for the BS interview, I meant if you have experience and only a beginning cert, you should be able to work through the interview w/o problems; provided you get the interview. I have given tough interviews to applicants who claimed to have lots of experience, and I have gone through tough interviews as well. I have been grilled on the same subject matter by different levels

Come to the plate ready to hit a home run.

I know what I know and that's all I know. What I don't know I'll find out.

 

[Microbyte]

I would dig deeper into the rabbit hole.
Instead of just digging Cisco and Microsoft's crust, I will go for just one side all the way in a heartbeat.
CCNA may portrays one to be knowledgable but still viewed as dummies from experienced eyes. CCNP however, even the experienced one will not look down on you.
I stand firm, and I am on a quest for CCNP. just couple of days ago, i got an interview with AT&T requiring CCNA certification but asked about ACL and BGPv4. In my case, CCNA is ineffective because it simply does not cover BGPs. Go for CCNP, you will not regret it.

 

[dogbert2]

Well, if everyone adopted WholeHeard's position, there wouldn't be a single entry level position to be had in I.T. (from a practical standpoint).

When I started working in this field 21.5 years ago, my first job was an academic tutor helping students learn
the finer points of BASIC and FORTRAN (made a whopping $6.00 an hour, in those days), but when you are a starving college student, anything helps.

The cert is a means to an end, i.e. it's someplace to start (I wouldn't turn down someone who only had a cert or two, but showed some cajones and wanted to prove themselves). The entry level person is gonna make mistakes (hell, i'm experienced, and I still make mistakes <grin>), but the key here is that a person with 0 to 6 months of exp. is gonna make more mistakes than someone who has 200 months of experience (of course, no matter what you do, you try to minimize the impact of any mistakes you might wind up making).

If you hire a person who has just certs, give them some time, they may turn out to be the best investment your company can make (the best ones always want to learn something more, and stretch their potential, at least that is what I have seen).

 

[bierhunter]

Whoheard, correct if I'm wrong, but I'm guessing you really meant to say you wouldn't hire someone with a cert who didn't have the experience to go with it.

Take two resumes with similar experience. One has no cert, and one has the cert that relates to the job. Which would you be interested in?

Personally, I really think it depends upon the position being filled.

If I'm looking for an entry level position, I would love to find someone with a cert who is also looking to build experience. Or, find someone who can do the job and is willing to learn more.

If I'm looking for an advanced position, I would like to find someone with experience. A cert and/or degree along with that would be even better. Both would be perfect.

A cert does this...

It shows that someone has at least learned the basics of a specific area of the technology. That person has met a baseline. A foundation to build upon. A set of standards. I like standards.

I have also met people who are very experienced but refuse to get certified, because they think they already know it all. Sorry, but I won't work with them. The attitude sucks. Plus, the ones like that I know don't really know jack. They can stay un-employed for all I care. I don't have the time for attitudes. In today's IT world, teams are important.

I've worked in the computer networking field for over 20 years (since 1979). Every time I study for a test I learn something new. Nobody knows it all. Keep learning. Whether it is a cert or a degree. Keep learning.

If anyone ever tells you that your cert or degree isn't worth it, ask them this...

&quot;What is your cert/degree and what are you working toward?&quot;

I've met many who have no answer, because they are working toward nothing. They have no future.

On the other hand, you may find someone who has an answer that is quite enlightening.

Also, I'd like to add that a degree will be very important in the future. A cert will open doors and get you up to a certain level (a nice level). But to keep going up through management, you may need that degree. It depends upon you employer.

Education rocks!!!! Keep doing it.

 

[wacobd]

I think everyone has valid points here.

Degrees

I have an Associates degree, I wanted to go for a 4 year degree, but when I talked to my adviser at the local Technical College here he made a good point to me. That was a 4 year degree is nice to have but that by the time I graduate with a 4 year degree most everything I learned in the first 2 years and possibly the third would be outdated already. I do plan to obtain my four year degree but that might be a few years down the road.

Certifications

I also hold my MCSE and CCNA. I am not one to go gain a certification, but I am one to gain knowledge. My employer offered the certifications to us and some of us took advantage of the education. Those that did not pass the certification tests did not get in trouble, in fact he only asked them if they learned anything from the class and that was good enough. Could I get a job without the certifications, I think I could, I think my qualifications could speak for themselves.

Most employers in my area (Texas) are looking for people with a College Degree AND MCSE, CCNA, A+. NET+, Security + and so on.

The bottom line is that you hire the best person for the job: degree/no degree certification/no certification experience/no experience. If Whoheard does not want to hire a person with only a certification that is his perogative, he has to do what is best for his company.

 

[Whoheard]

Let me clarify.

For a person starting out, AKA CCNA2:

No experience. No job.

No cert. No job.

Experience. Job. Lowest pay, if you get an interview.

Cert and little to no experience. Job. Low pay, if you get an interview.

Cert and experience. Job. better pay. (pay is adjustable to match experience level)

Degree and experience. Job. Even Better pay.

Degree, Cert, and experience. Good pay. Very good pay depending upon the level of experience.

Employers are looking for the most qualified for every position they have. And if I was looking for an entry-level person, and I had all these to choose from, who do you think would get the job?


As for us old guys (20 plus years in the field), I agree with most everything you said with the exception of the certs for experienced people.

Certs are very good and important, I agree. And, they add a lot of value to your resume. But, I only want to get a MCSE, CCNA, CCNP, CCIE or others just once. I should not have to go through a total retrain every couple of years because a company says the last cert is expired. I earned the cert and it is mine for life. Now, this does not relieve me of any duty to take refresher courses to keep me up to date with the latest technology; but I should not need to get another MCSE, CCNA, CCNP, CCIE, or others again. I would think my years of experience would count for something. Also, the last time I checked, my degree did not require me to go back to school for finals every so many years.

You can't take away what I have already learned, but you can supplement it.

Education is very important and it will always a top priority with me.



I know what I know and that's all I know. What I don't know I'll find out.

 

[rainman]

Great thread going here.

CCNA2 - I also agree that the only thing that's going to matter when you go for that job interview is how well you can explain what you know, what you've worked with, years working in the computer field, etc.

Certifications are great, however they will never match experience, since the employer is looking for someone who will get the job done, not have to look up an answer or research it for weeks, or ask others.

I've been into computers since I was 11 (28 now, started on the C=64) ... I've seen alot of change over the past 17 years of computing/networking, and all I can say is practice practice practice. Setup your home labs (multiple routers/switches), multiple PC's doing different things.

dogbert - I read your post and you are 100% right, and 100% on track.

I have had my CCNA for over 2 years now (actively working on my CCNP). I don't have any Microsoft certifications because I don't believe in them. I used Microsoft stuff since DOS 3.22 and saw how they changed over the years. Sure there's advanced options in MS products that a MS cert might help you know better, however I don't have an MS cert and I can tell you how to do setup those same services that MS certs might know, or anything with a PC for that matter (all the way up to advanced options in W2K server) and other operating systems.

As for other operating systems, MS certs focus mainly on their product ... Windows and applications that run on Windows. This does make up a good percentage of the world's PC's and operating systems, however the times are changing. These days you need to know Unix (Linux ... Solaris ... BSD ... Redhat ... ). Once you can learn the Unix/Linux product to the same level as that MS product, THEN you are super marketable. Keep in mind that MS cert isn't telling you anything about Unix/Linux which is so blinding if you ask me.

Then on top of knowing what I listed above, you have to know how to relay your ideas to people otherwise you won't be heard. Sure knowing Microsoft / PC's / Cisco / networking / everything is great and it's real marketable, however you have to be able to effectively express these things to people (business partners, management, etc). You can use Visio as much as you want, but you'll find that the

http://WWW (Internet)

is great. Learn HTML / XML / Perl / SQL / PHP and express yourself in that method.

Again, you can do all of the above things with a home lab (2-3 PC's). Learn the PC's raw hardware and how it interacts with each parts then learn the software on top of it (operating system). Also go out and invest some $$$ in a good home network. With that you can setup almost any lab environment, which is great to cover the hands on experience. I have about 6 VLAN's setup @ home for each of my needs (wireless LAN, OSPF routing, etc). I even have a real T1 going from router -> router (CSU -> CSU).

To sum up my rambling:

Practice practice practice and don't forget to practice. Go for the certs if you have to because of the job market however nothing makes up for real knowledge.


-Rainman

 

[littleluker]

Ok now I am confused

the best formula is (degree + experience + certs right)

so in this threads opinion whould:

BS + 3/4 ms + (10+ years experience networking from desk top to backend, security, 99.999 reliability etc)
+ cne3-5.1 + ccna2 and bcsi passed.

what would that equal? I am just tring to understand the threads opion and direction. Thanks

 

[Whoheard]

Its really simple... Put on the application/resume, or bring to the interview, as much as you can. If the other guy has more, you will loose.


littleluker. If you have all that, &quot;BS + 3/4 ms + (10+ years experience networking from desk top to backend, security, 99.999 reliability etc) + cne3-5.1 + ccna2 and bcsi passed;&quot; that is very good.

What are you looking to do with it?


bob

I know what I know and that's all I know. What I don't know I'll find out.