BootCamp Deal - Did I get a good deal??? 1

[wvspecialkvw]

2003 MCSE/MCSA
CCNA

All inclusive roundtrip airfare to Atlanta...Lodging and food for 21 days....

For $6500

Good Deal?

 

[NickFerrar]

Not sure on course costs in the US but in the UK a 21 day 2003 MCSE/MCSA + Security is about £6500, given the current exchange $6500 seems a bargain.

 

[jtb]

21 days, eh?

food @ $25 = $525
hotel @ $75 = $1575
airfare @ $200
leaves $6500 - $2300 = $4200 for training
That means about $200/day... not too bad...

Depends on whether you think that bootcamp and the certifications are going to bring you more than $6500 in return (payback in 1 year!)...

If you have the requisite experience and an MCSE will get you a better job, it's good. If you have to borrow the money, well, it's a lot to pay back...

Definitely talk this one over with your family (spouse and/or parents) first!! It may be a great deal. It may not be. Get at least one other opinion.


JTB
Have Certs, Will Travel
"A knight without armour in a [cyber] land."

 

[setnaffa]

I like classroom training; but the prices scare the heck outta me...

Who has a spare six grand?

Setnaffa is an MCP-W2K (working on MCSE-W2K) with a few other certs, too...

 

[ladato]

I'm at the same boot camp experience now, for about the same price. In my research, that is the best price I found.

I have discovered that not all bootcamps are created equal, and I've found that the company I chose is one of the better ones, based on their matierals, facility and trainers.

I would have spent months doing it on my own, this has been well worth the cost. IMHO (of course).

Leon

PS: I don't want to violate any board rules about posting/promoting companies. If you are curious, you can read my day-to-day blog at

http://leonadato.blogspot.com

Leon Adato (adatole@yahoo.com)
Measure what is measurable,
And make measurable what is not so.
- Galileo

 

[ElijahBaley]

Is it possible to spend 6.5G and not pass the exams?

..EB

(Plainclothesman)
R Tape Loading Error

 

[ladato]

Yes Virginia, it is possible to spend $10k and not pass the exams.

The fact is, YOU have to take the test. If you are clueless about what an IP address is, much less a subnet mask, default gateway, etc. You are going to struggle. If you have never heard of active directory, you are going to struggle, etc.

Is it still possible to pass? Yes. But expect to work your @ss off. If it was easy, it would be called "summer camp" instead.

"Failure is not an option" is the motto. "Yeah, it's built into the software standard" is the response.

When you are talking to vendors, ask about their retake policy. Most of them offer retakes. Find out whether you get 2 retakes total for the program (meaning 2 retakes over the entire 7 test series) or 2 retakes per test (meaning a total of 14).

But the fact is that you also need to spend your money wisely. I came to a boot camp because I have worked with most of this technology in the field; because I already had a CNE and MCSE (NT4); and because I understood the concepts. I just needed a environment where I didn't have to sit through the "this is an IP address" speech, and could mess with stuff at a fast pace and high-level. Then I needed someone to help me focus on the topics that would be on the test, and differentiate between what subjects would be on which test.

The other thing to know when evaluating whether you want to take the test is this:

Microsoft expects you to know a wide variety of elements at a very shallow level. You need to know that ldp and ntdsutil are command line tools. You need to know when they are used. But you will never have to give their parameters nor any more than the fact that they exist.

Hope that helps.

Leon Adato (adatole@yahoo.com)
Measure what is measurable,
And make measurable what is not so.
- Galileo

 

[jtb]

Actually, you might need to knowe a little about their parameters...

...assuming that you get the cert in order to get a job...

...assuming that the job requires you to actually work on W2K servers...

You know what I'm saying?


so know the basic parameters... just to get past the technical interviews...

JTB
Have Certs, Will Travel
"A knight without armour in a [cyber] land."

 

[Jsteve]

I am completely against boot camps in that price range. I found a class last year called Advanced Networing class. I didn't know a thing about AD or DNS. The class was only $1000 and it lasted 18 weeks. It was completely hands-ons and i went from knowing very little to doing nt4 with exchange 5.5 to a full win2k and win2000 exchange migration. We made rj45 patch bays, rj45 cables (486A & B specs, cross over, straight through and rollover), did some network sniffing. Recovering AD and building DNS manually. All in all, I would take a class like that over a $6G boot camp that gears you towards taking a test, than learning the technology.

 

[jtb]

Jsteve,

Was this a community college or an independent type like Global L. or New H.???

JTB
Have Certs, Will Travel
"A knight without armour in a [cyber] land."

 

[ladato]

Good points all around. I think the difference here is, if you already know how to do that stuff (OK, I don't know how to do cat5 punchdown, but I'm Ok on the rest) and have experienced some or most of it "in the wild", then what is the point of the $1,000 course? More of the same?

I needed a cert because my company needed me to have it. Experience I was good on. The boot camp was the fastest way to the cert because it is my experience that most tests are written for a book answer and not (and sometimes contrary to) real-world experience. We had one guy this week fail the DNS portion of a test, and he administers DNS as part of his job!

The boot camp experience has clarified elements of things I don't work with regularly (like recovering AD, which I do not do on a daily basis) and has also helped me focus on what Microsoft expects as part of their answer. (Installing a $4,000 ISA solution instead of a $500 router.)

Again, if you need the experience, then a boot camp is the wrong place to get it. If you have the experience and you DON'T have 18 weeks (sorry, wife and 4 kids and a whole life to live outside of work), then a boot camp may be the best tool.

IMHO.
Leon

Leon Adato (adatole@yahoo.com)
Measure what is measurable,
And make measurable what is not so.
- Galileo

 

[Jsteve]

Again, if you need the experience, then a boot camp is the wrong place to get it. If you have the experience and you DON'T have 18 weeks (sorry, wife and 4 kids and a whole life to live outside of work), then a boot camp may be the best tool.LMAO

i think some people need the regiment of a boot camp to push you to take the test. As for the $1000, my point is that less money and more will power will get you to that same place as a boot camp and maybe further.

Jtb, that was a independent company name Corp. Lan System in NY. Limited to 10 per class. excellent teacher. I turned around after that class and took their CCNP class. The CCNP class was not as good as the first class.

 

[wvspecialkvw]

I guess its safe to say in most cases...you get what you pay for (plus what effort you put into it)...I, personally can retain a lot...when someone shows me how, I remember...
I think the boot will help me immensely...thanx for all of your opinions...

 

[NickFerrar]

Whilst I always hated the idea of boot camps back in the NT4 days when people with no experience were using them to get certs quickly to get into well-paying jobs I think times have changed a lot.

These days employers are much wiser to fact you need experience not just a cert and there's a lot of people with both out there looking for jobs so you'd be pretty dumb these days to do a bootcamp to get certs to look for your first job.

Personally my company wants me certified to (we do some consultancy work etc.), I've been in my current job over 7 years and started off with NT3.51 here so I have a lot of experience (although only in a sub-500 seat environment with a few domains). I just don't have the willpower to self study etc, I bought the books but just find myself falling to sleep after reading one for an hour or so! I'm hoping being stuck in an intensive environment for 14 days (16 hours a day study sounds scary though!) is what I need to get it over and done with. It's certainly not for everyone though. Hopefully I can get at least 5 of the 7 exams passed on the camp and then only need to worry about the last couple which even I can motivate myself for

 

[jtb]

Don't put yourself in a box just yet, Nick!!! If I could self-study, you can, too!!

JTB
Have Certs, Will Travel
"A knight without armour in a [cyber] land."

 

[setnaffa]

JTB is right about the self-study... I have 4 old Pentium-based PCs and a 1.3GHz Celeron in my lab... spent less than US$1000.00, including software... it isn't pretty; but it works...

Setnaffa is an MCP-W2K (working on MCSE-W2K) with a few other certs, too...

 

[CharlieJax]

Education comes to us all by diffrent means, there is nothing wrong with classes to help boost your knowledge or to start you down the road.

The journey you take is your own, if you belive you are getting a good value then you are.

For example, I just bought a paintball gun, people at work can't belive how much I spent on it, but I like it, so I feel I got a good value out of it.

Value is like beauty, in the eye of the beholder. Boot camps teach simply teach you the things you need to pass the test but don't offer much beyond that (although some of the classes I have taken have covered things far beyond their scope).

Personaly I have used a blend of self paced CDs, books, classes, and of course almost 10 years of experience to get the certs I have. They were for personal achivement (although they also helped to meet my training requirments at work

That is the path that worked best for me.


CJ

Don't drink and post, save that for driving home!

 

[Terpsfan]

I have vacillated between whether classes or self study is the best route to take. The problem with a lot of classes is that they are overpriced, and often just go out of the Microsoft Press book. The problem with self study is that you don't have someone around that can help focus your study, and you have no one to ask if you don't understand a concept. If you can get a good instructor it is well worth the money you spend. A good trainer can point you in the right direction on things. For example, 3 years ago I took a SQL Server class. My instructor was brilliant...I think he had every Microsoft certification available. He discussed technologies that were 3-4 years ahead of what was out on the market. He helped point me in the right direction in my career. I was thinking another alternative to a tech school would be a community college or university. Some offer certification tracks as well.

 

[setnaffa]

you have no one to ask if you don't understand a concept

What about us?!?!? Are we suddenly chopped liver?

I mean, on the basics, we can certainly recommend additional (often free) resources, answer questions, and stuff...

Setnaffa is an MCP-W2K (working on MCSE-W2K) with a few other certs, too...

 

[Jsteve]

I think some people need to be guided to the promise land, some just need to pass their certs quickly and the class environment works for them.

I am opposed to spending 6grand for a MCSE course. I think you can achieve the same results without spending that much money.

You can spend $500 on a good lab setup and than pay an IT guy 41000 for a one on one session to show you the tricks of the trades or spend $500 for a lab and $1000 on books and the CBT nugget set of CDs (which is what I use) than study, study.

Some say that you don't focus when you self study, I tell you what works for me. I schedule my exam two weeks in advance, than I push myself to learn the material before that date. If I don't schedule a test, I loose focus also. But that is what works for me.