suicidaltendencies
Programmer
Are some of the MCSE tests harder than others? If you can pass one can you normally pass another?
Thanks,
Harold
Thanks,
Harold
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Are some of the MCSE tests harder than others? 4
- Thread starter suicidaltendencies
- Start date
- Status
Are some MCSE test's harder than others? That is a tricky question.
That really depends on what your skill area is. If you have a good network background, the 216 test will not be as hard to you as others, but you may have problems with the Server test or vice versa.
I had one guy here tell me that if I could pass 210, 215, and 216 during my boot camp, that I should "Breeze" through the design tests. Well I passed 210, 215, 216, and had to retake two design tests because I thought they were hard.
Over all, if you know your stuff, all the tests should be difficult but easy to get through.
That really depends on what your skill area is. If you have a good network background, the 216 test will not be as hard to you as others, but you may have problems with the Server test or vice versa.
I had one guy here tell me that if I could pass 210, 215, and 216 during my boot camp, that I should "Breeze" through the design tests. Well I passed 210, 215, 216, and had to retake two design tests because I thought they were hard.
Over all, if you know your stuff, all the tests should be difficult but easy to get through.
I don't know if I agree with you wacobd. I am a CCNP and have a solid networking bkg and thought I'd breeze through this exam, but the way the questions were put together on 216 was tricky. They added a lot of fluff that hade nothing to do with the actual question in the end. I think it tested your skills on comprehension and less on actual hands on work.
Then a gain, i will need to get through the others to find out which is the hardest.
Then a gain, i will need to get through the others to find out which is the hardest.
I will agree the 216 is tricky. In fact I had to verify I passed the exam because (I think) you needed a 720 to pass and I got a 720. Our instructor came out and told us during class that if you have a CCNA or have Cisco knowledge, forget it because we will need to know the "Microsoft way". Even though Subnetting was the same, some of the other terminology was different. Of course like you said, the fluff they added was distrubing (I mean, if we are taking the test we should know that we are "The Administrator of a Windows 2000 network...) 
I was not trying to say 216 was easy, but pointing out what one person thinks is easy will be hard to others and vice versa. I was told the CCNA test was easy and that if I took the entry level cisco class I would pass the CCNA no problem. Well I got to take the test again.
The way I explain this to others that ask me about certifications and if they are easy, I explain to them that the BAR exam will be easier to a person who has graduated law school than it would a Network Administrator who has read a law book. If you know your stuff you won't need to worry.
I was not trying to say 216 was easy, but pointing out what one person thinks is easy will be hard to others and vice versa. I was told the CCNA test was easy and that if I took the entry level cisco class I would pass the CCNA no problem. Well I got to take the test again.
The way I explain this to others that ask me about certifications and if they are easy, I explain to them that the BAR exam will be easier to a person who has graduated law school than it would a Network Administrator who has read a law book. If you know your stuff you won't need to worry.
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- #8
ladato
Programmer
- Jun 5, 2002
- 48
I'm at a boot camp right now, in the 2003 MCSE track. I can tell you clearly that the tests are not equal, not even and not even consistent.
Maybe this is because it is a new track and they are trying to settle in, but:
1) person took 70-291 and got a score of 365. One hour later, he got 990 (both out of 1000). Either he got a "broken" test first, or he did a great job of guessing second. Either way it's not a good sign.
2) On 70-293, some of us scored 1049 out of 1000! It's not bad, but it also leaves you wondering about those poor folks who got 640 (passing score is 700). Did they really miss it, or...?
3) We just tried 70-294 tonight. Rumor has it that the highest score you could possibly get is 800. My bars were nearly full and I got 730. Other folks (much smarter than I, in my estimation) failed with 660 or so.
We all studied the same material, quizzed each other on the same scenarios. There wasn't a whole lot of difference in the knowledge we had going in.
First, what's with a 100-point window of success? Second (and I could never explain or prove it adequately on a list like this, so you are stuck with my perception/opinion) the other guys were more informed that I was. Why did I get the lucky test?
So in a word, yes. Some tests are harder than others. And that's within the same exam set.
You rolls the dice, you takes your chances.
Leon
Leon Adato (adatole@yahoo.com)
Measure what is measurable,
And make measurable what is not so.
- Galileo
Maybe this is because it is a new track and they are trying to settle in, but:
1) person took 70-291 and got a score of 365. One hour later, he got 990 (both out of 1000). Either he got a "broken" test first, or he did a great job of guessing second. Either way it's not a good sign.
2) On 70-293, some of us scored 1049 out of 1000! It's not bad, but it also leaves you wondering about those poor folks who got 640 (passing score is 700). Did they really miss it, or...?
3) We just tried 70-294 tonight. Rumor has it that the highest score you could possibly get is 800. My bars were nearly full and I got 730. Other folks (much smarter than I, in my estimation) failed with 660 or so.
We all studied the same material, quizzed each other on the same scenarios. There wasn't a whole lot of difference in the knowledge we had going in.
First, what's with a 100-point window of success? Second (and I could never explain or prove it adequately on a list like this, so you are stuck with my perception/opinion) the other guys were more informed that I was. Why did I get the lucky test?
So in a word, yes. Some tests are harder than others. And that's within the same exam set.
You rolls the dice, you takes your chances.
Leon
Leon Adato (adatole@yahoo.com)
Measure what is measurable,
And make measurable what is not so.
- Galileo
Excellent explanation Leon!!
You make the point quite well that learning the materials is better than trying to memorize questions!! There are too many variations!!
Who says MS doesn't listen?
JTB
Have Certs, Will Travel
"A knight without armour in a [cyber] land."
You make the point quite well that learning the materials is better than trying to memorize questions!! There are too many variations!!
Who says MS doesn't listen?
JTB
Have Certs, Will Travel
"A knight without armour in a [cyber] land."
ladato
Programmer
- Jun 5, 2002
- 48
Thanks for the compliment. And I wholeheartedly repeat: you need to know your stuff.
But you also need to know that there are truly "broken" tests out there. And that the material you need to know goes beyond "I've done that" type of experience. It also means you need to know the answers Microsoft expects. As I stated in another thread, Microsoft considers "Install an ISA server ($4,000)" to be the right answer and "Install an intelligent router" ($500) to be the wrong one.
The last test, which I passed today, was 70-297. Can someone explain to me what it proves, to be able to pass that test?
4 scenarios
6-10 screens of information per scenario
10 questions per scenario
20 minutes per scenario (one was 15 minutes).
The Win2k track gave you an hour per scenario, and I'm OK with that. But this was a total rat race. How does my being able to speed-read and then spit out answers prove I can be a thoughtful, creative, solutions-oriented, value-providing resource to your company?
$.02 happily deducted.
Leon
Leon Adato (adatole@yahoo.com)
Measure what is measurable,
And make measurable what is not so.
- Galileo
But you also need to know that there are truly "broken" tests out there. And that the material you need to know goes beyond "I've done that" type of experience. It also means you need to know the answers Microsoft expects. As I stated in another thread, Microsoft considers "Install an ISA server ($4,000)" to be the right answer and "Install an intelligent router" ($500) to be the wrong one.
The last test, which I passed today, was 70-297. Can someone explain to me what it proves, to be able to pass that test?
4 scenarios
6-10 screens of information per scenario
10 questions per scenario
20 minutes per scenario (one was 15 minutes).
The Win2k track gave you an hour per scenario, and I'm OK with that. But this was a total rat race. How does my being able to speed-read and then spit out answers prove I can be a thoughtful, creative, solutions-oriented, value-providing resource to your company?
$.02 happily deducted.
Leon
Leon Adato (adatole@yahoo.com)
Measure what is measurable,
And make measurable what is not so.
- Galileo
"The Win2k track gave you an hour per scenario, and I'm OK with that. But this was a total rat race. How does my being able to speed-read and then spit out answers prove I can be a thoughtful, creative, solutions-oriented, value-providing resource to your company?"
Great point. that's the way I felt when I took the 216.
Great point. that's the way I felt when I took the 216.
In real life, there are more than 4 choices.
In real life, the right technical answer is not always the right political answer.
MS tests are only designed to test your understanding of MS products, not "real life".
Certifications are only valuable if (a) someone hires you because you have them, or (b) your employer pays you more money because you have them.
Well, there is that pride of ownership/accomplishment thing, too... but it won't put waffles on the breakfast table...
JTB
Have Certs, Will Travel
"A knight without armour in a [cyber] land."
In real life, the right technical answer is not always the right political answer.
MS tests are only designed to test your understanding of MS products, not "real life".
Certifications are only valuable if (a) someone hires you because you have them, or (b) your employer pays you more money because you have them.
Well, there is that pride of ownership/accomplishment thing, too... but it won't put waffles on the breakfast table...
JTB
Have Certs, Will Travel
"A knight without armour in a [cyber] land."
JTB is right. When I went to my MCSE boot camp, the instructor kept on telling us that we needed to know the Microsoft answer for the test and not the real world answer (in fact the first day he told us to forget everything we knew about troubleshooting, and setting up Microsoft systems). We got into several heated discussions about the right answer and like he said, what we do in the field will work, but that is not the answer Microsoft (or Cisco, or Comptia depending on which test you take) wants.
He also impressed that when/if we need to interview for jobs, we will need to know how to explain ourselves instead of just knowing that the answer is "c".
He also impressed that when/if we need to interview for jobs, we will need to know how to explain ourselves instead of just knowing that the answer is "c".
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1
- #15
All -
*/Stepping up on soapbox
I just took tried the easiest one of them all; 70-270...all I can say is, I'm a big enough man to admit if I screwed off and didn't prepare for something. That being said, out of 50 questions, I recognized only 20 that pertained in any way to what I studied (Sybex, Troytech, BrainBuzz and Testking); in fact, I have been working with XP Pro for over a year now, even trained my Help Desk department once we switched from Win2K to XP. I scored a 687 out of 700; evry practice test that I took, I scored at least in the high 80th percentile. I have no way to prove this, but I have heard from the Sys Admins here at work, that Microsoft "changed" the tests; well if that is in any way true, how can I prepare for it, short of taking a Microsoft "approved" training class, using their exclusive material? It rather reduces the MCSE to an unattainable goal unless you memorize the answers...pointless.
Of course, I could be wrong; it is very possible that I simply drew quite a few hard questions from the pool. Needless to say, I am discouraged, as this was supposed to be the no-brainer (assuming of course that you studied and had plenty of hands on, which I did and I do); if there is any truth to the change, I am horrified to think what may come up on the Server test! Or AD!
Thanks for the time and space to rant.
*/Stepping down off of soapbox
Tim
*/Stepping up on soapbox
I just took tried the easiest one of them all; 70-270...all I can say is, I'm a big enough man to admit if I screwed off and didn't prepare for something. That being said, out of 50 questions, I recognized only 20 that pertained in any way to what I studied (Sybex, Troytech, BrainBuzz and Testking); in fact, I have been working with XP Pro for over a year now, even trained my Help Desk department once we switched from Win2K to XP. I scored a 687 out of 700; evry practice test that I took, I scored at least in the high 80th percentile. I have no way to prove this, but I have heard from the Sys Admins here at work, that Microsoft "changed" the tests; well if that is in any way true, how can I prepare for it, short of taking a Microsoft "approved" training class, using their exclusive material? It rather reduces the MCSE to an unattainable goal unless you memorize the answers...pointless.
Of course, I could be wrong; it is very possible that I simply drew quite a few hard questions from the pool. Needless to say, I am discouraged, as this was supposed to be the no-brainer (assuming of course that you studied and had plenty of hands on, which I did and I do); if there is any truth to the change, I am horrified to think what may come up on the Server test! Or AD!
Thanks for the time and space to rant.
*/Stepping down off of soapbox
Tim
Tim,
Thanks for the rant!! Perhaps we can help in your "next steps"
Testking, the king of all braindumps, was the first problem; but that aside, the only way to cover the "Pro" tests is to study for Pro, Server, Active Directory, and Network. Yes, all of them.
Sorry to burst your bubble; but our dear friends at MS do *not* make 1-to-1 classes and tests. And they do have literally thousands of questions per test... and some overlapping between tests...
Do you remember that one of the MS prerequisites for the MCSE is that you have 2 years of experience?
Memorizing the answers really is pointless as it would be tougher than just studying and practicing all the stuff in all the books until you could do it in your sleep (like those of us who have "on call" responsibilities often seem to be doing...
70-270 is not easier than 70-210.
I'm guessing (since I took 210) that you were mostly "thrown" by the server-based questions and those related to security? There have been reports of more of those lately...
I found that a combination of putzing around in my little Pentium and Pentium MMX network with cheap or free eval software was enough for learning the parts of W2K that I don't have the chance to use in my job. I am hoping my recently acquired PIII and Celeron PCs will do the same for 2K3...
My "Training Library" includes books I bought for either $4.99 or even $0.99 at local bookstores. I have books from Sybex, MS, Coriolis (ExamCram I, if you will), and Syngress. For 2K3 I broke down and bought the big blue MS upgrade book and the two ExamCram II books.
Please let us know if you have specific questions!!
Next time you will succeed!!!
JTB
Have Certs, Will Travel
"A knight without armour in a [cyber] land."
Thanks for the rant!! Perhaps we can help in your "next steps"
Testking, the king of all braindumps, was the first problem; but that aside, the only way to cover the "Pro" tests is to study for Pro, Server, Active Directory, and Network. Yes, all of them.
Sorry to burst your bubble; but our dear friends at MS do *not* make 1-to-1 classes and tests. And they do have literally thousands of questions per test... and some overlapping between tests...
Do you remember that one of the MS prerequisites for the MCSE is that you have 2 years of experience?
Memorizing the answers really is pointless as it would be tougher than just studying and practicing all the stuff in all the books until you could do it in your sleep (like those of us who have "on call" responsibilities often seem to be doing...
70-270 is not easier than 70-210.
I'm guessing (since I took 210) that you were mostly "thrown" by the server-based questions and those related to security? There have been reports of more of those lately...
I found that a combination of putzing around in my little Pentium and Pentium MMX network with cheap or free eval software was enough for learning the parts of W2K that I don't have the chance to use in my job. I am hoping my recently acquired PIII and Celeron PCs will do the same for 2K3...
My "Training Library" includes books I bought for either $4.99 or even $0.99 at local bookstores. I have books from Sybex, MS, Coriolis (ExamCram I, if you will), and Syngress. For 2K3 I broke down and bought the big blue MS upgrade book and the two ExamCram II books.
Please let us know if you have specific questions!!
Next time you will succeed!!!
JTB
Have Certs, Will Travel
"A knight without armour in a [cyber] land."
Thanks JTB,
Yeah, testking was a mistake, and I don't want to lead anyone to believe that I was simply trying to memorize the answers, which as you pointed out, would be a huge exercise in futility. Sadly, the less than 2 years is probably much of my problem. As far as the range of unfamilar questions, I cannot specify what they were; I have never seen the subjects before. I have access to an AD domain/DHCP/DNS and WINS server that I play with as much as I want. I have studied Server 2000, and implemented AD, and all that goes along with it, at least on a small scale.
My main concern is having the "right" material; it doesn't do me any good to study if Microsoft keeps moving the goalposts. I am familiar with Server and security situations. I'd like to think that I am very familiar with networking (I have Network + and currently am learning in depth router configuration with a Cisco 2900 router).
Just a little discouraged, but who wouldn't be? Rest assured, as long as I have the proper study material, I will pass.
Time to dump all things Testking! Actually, I'll dump all test questions unless they are at the end of a chapter review questions.
I am humbled, that's for sure!
Thanks for you help and encouragement!
Tim
Yeah, testking was a mistake, and I don't want to lead anyone to believe that I was simply trying to memorize the answers, which as you pointed out, would be a huge exercise in futility. Sadly, the less than 2 years is probably much of my problem. As far as the range of unfamilar questions, I cannot specify what they were; I have never seen the subjects before. I have access to an AD domain/DHCP/DNS and WINS server that I play with as much as I want. I have studied Server 2000, and implemented AD, and all that goes along with it, at least on a small scale.
My main concern is having the "right" material; it doesn't do me any good to study if Microsoft keeps moving the goalposts. I am familiar with Server and security situations. I'd like to think that I am very familiar with networking (I have Network + and currently am learning in depth router configuration with a Cisco 2900 router).
Just a little discouraged, but who wouldn't be? Rest assured, as long as I have the proper study material, I will pass.
Time to dump all things Testking! Actually, I'll dump all test questions unless they are at the end of a chapter review questions.
I am humbled, that's for sure!
Thanks for you help and encouragement!
Tim
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1
- #18
Are some harder, yes.
I was emailed your post from a former student of ours who just completed the 2003 MCSE track. In our orientation, one of the first things we tell our students is NOT to use brain dumps, third party, testking, etc. This is not true learning. The answers they present are from a pool of people who have tried to research the questions posted on these forums.
Here is what is happening currently in the 2003 track:
70-270 Passing 700, Max score 937 (we found this out from a student in our last class who had scored perfect on each subject)
70-290 Passing 700, Max score 755
70-291 Passing 700, Max score 800 (we have never seen higher than a 745)
70-227 Passing 700, Max score 900 (we hae never seen a higher score than 899)
70-293 Passing 700, there are 2 versions of this test. One you can get a max score of 800, the other 1100.
70-294, Passing 700, Max score of 755
70-297, Passing 700, Max score unknown. Highest we have seen is 838
As you can see by the numbers, Microsoft is not giving much room for error. The reason for this is companies such as Testking and MCSEbraindumps, who steal the exam material and try to sell it on the internet, only to produce the "Paper MCSE".
I completely agree with you. If Microsoft changes the exams so often, how can the books out there help you? Additionally, Microsoft admits that their own material alone cannot help you pass these exams. You must supplement it somehow with experience and other materials.
On one hand, I must agree with what Microsoft is doing in order to avoid putting paper MCSE's out there. But on the other hand, as an MCSE instructor myself, I must admit that some of subjects being tested are very unfair and have forced several to persue other certifications.
Is this track passible? Yes. We have been running the 2000 MCSE/MCSA track for years along with the other schools and have shown a large percentage of certifications, 2003 is new and will continue to change for some time. However, even with the changes, we have seen a good passing rate, but with more work involved.
The key is not trying to find the questions and memorize answers. Find the tools, get the concepts.
I would suggest researching a boot camp type company that has the experience and the tools to ramp you up on the information and subjects required to pass these exams.
Good Luck with your certification quest!
Richard
I was emailed your post from a former student of ours who just completed the 2003 MCSE track. In our orientation, one of the first things we tell our students is NOT to use brain dumps, third party, testking, etc. This is not true learning. The answers they present are from a pool of people who have tried to research the questions posted on these forums.
Here is what is happening currently in the 2003 track:
70-270 Passing 700, Max score 937 (we found this out from a student in our last class who had scored perfect on each subject)
70-290 Passing 700, Max score 755
70-291 Passing 700, Max score 800 (we have never seen higher than a 745)
70-227 Passing 700, Max score 900 (we hae never seen a higher score than 899)
70-293 Passing 700, there are 2 versions of this test. One you can get a max score of 800, the other 1100.
70-294, Passing 700, Max score of 755
70-297, Passing 700, Max score unknown. Highest we have seen is 838
As you can see by the numbers, Microsoft is not giving much room for error. The reason for this is companies such as Testking and MCSEbraindumps, who steal the exam material and try to sell it on the internet, only to produce the "Paper MCSE".
I completely agree with you. If Microsoft changes the exams so often, how can the books out there help you? Additionally, Microsoft admits that their own material alone cannot help you pass these exams. You must supplement it somehow with experience and other materials.
On one hand, I must agree with what Microsoft is doing in order to avoid putting paper MCSE's out there. But on the other hand, as an MCSE instructor myself, I must admit that some of subjects being tested are very unfair and have forced several to persue other certifications.
Is this track passible? Yes. We have been running the 2000 MCSE/MCSA track for years along with the other schools and have shown a large percentage of certifications, 2003 is new and will continue to change for some time. However, even with the changes, we have seen a good passing rate, but with more work involved.
The key is not trying to find the questions and memorize answers. Find the tools, get the concepts.
I would suggest researching a boot camp type company that has the experience and the tools to ramp you up on the information and subjects required to pass these exams.
Good Luck with your certification quest!
Richard
AmbiLogic,
Thank you, and I am in complete agreement with you. Since my company will not pay for the certs, much less any training, I am somewhat "forced" to learn (not memorize) from whatever materials I can find. Although, I know that they must be current; I received a 687 on the 70-270, so it wasn't like I was way off (probably 2 or 3 questions. I have no doubt that I'll pass it next time. I know what you mean about paper MCSE's; many companies, many of them here in town (Columbus Ohio) offer classes on passing the tests. These are the people that give IT people a bad name, and MS's efforts are on the right track.
I'll take it again in a couple of weeks, after studying more and NOT practice taking any tests.
Thanks again for everything!
Tim
Thank you, and I am in complete agreement with you. Since my company will not pay for the certs, much less any training, I am somewhat "forced" to learn (not memorize) from whatever materials I can find. Although, I know that they must be current; I received a 687 on the 70-270, so it wasn't like I was way off (probably 2 or 3 questions. I have no doubt that I'll pass it next time. I know what you mean about paper MCSE's; many companies, many of them here in town (Columbus Ohio) offer classes on passing the tests. These are the people that give IT people a bad name, and MS's efforts are on the right track.
I'll take it again in a couple of weeks, after studying more and NOT practice taking any tests.
Thanks again for everything!
Tim
Hi Tim,
For the 70-270, I would suggest studying:
Installation (know your switches), unattended installs (answer files)
For networking, XP version of IIS, Internet connection sharing, Internet connection firewall, Basic WINS and Routing
Hardware Management - Roll Back, Updating Drivers, Startup options, driver signing, disk mananement
Performance - Virtual Memory, System Monitor
Disaster Recovery - Backups (Full, Differential, Incremental), Shadow Copies and Previous versions software
NTFS/Share Permissions
NTFS Features such as Offline files, Disk Quotas, EFS, Converting to NTFS from FAT32
Feel free to post any questions.
Good Luck on your retake!
Richard
For the 70-270, I would suggest studying:
Installation (know your switches), unattended installs (answer files)
For networking, XP version of IIS, Internet connection sharing, Internet connection firewall, Basic WINS and Routing
Hardware Management - Roll Back, Updating Drivers, Startup options, driver signing, disk mananement
Performance - Virtual Memory, System Monitor
Disaster Recovery - Backups (Full, Differential, Incremental), Shadow Copies and Previous versions software
NTFS/Share Permissions
NTFS Features such as Offline files, Disk Quotas, EFS, Converting to NTFS from FAT32
Feel free to post any questions.
Good Luck on your retake!
Richard
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