Could someone keeping an eye on the latest development of graphic cards please explain what's going on with AGP? New and the most expensive PCs are now sold with PCI vidio cards (PCI Express they say). What is this? Is it better than AGP 8x? What's the future of graphic cards? Thanks.
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AGP: back to PCI? 3
- Thread starter nagornyi
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yes, its better and will be the new standard.
if you wanne know more
if you wanne know more
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Computer graphics have been a center stage for furious technology battles for the past few years. PC gaming took the industry into a new direction with the Voodoo 2, and graphics has been a very hot question ever since.
There are essentially two factors that define the level of performance of a graphics card : the power of the cards GPU, and the speed at which the PC can deliver data to it. The first factor is the basis for the constant renewal of models and intense PR and engineering battles that the two major houses (ATI and nvidia) are fighting 24/7.
Yet, all these battles would be for naught if the PC itself was not increasing data throughput in order to fuel the power of today's and tomorrow's models. If PCs were still on the ISA bus, all of today's cards would be seriously hampered by lack of data, meaning that the latest, greatest model would probably be no faster than the slowest one.
That is the reason of the existence of PCI express. Its all about increasing bandwidth. You had ISA, then PCI (33MB/s, I think), then AGP 1x, 2x, 4x, 8x, and now PCI Express is the new king of speed - you could call it AGP 16x.
More important, PCI Express will evolve in the next few years to become even faster, as will our beloved graphics cards.
Its like the car industry. Take any BMW with a 150hp 2-liter engine. You can replace the engine with a V8, 450hp version, but you had better upgrade the brakes to keep up with the new power.
PCI express is the new set of brakes.
Pascal.
There are essentially two factors that define the level of performance of a graphics card : the power of the cards GPU, and the speed at which the PC can deliver data to it. The first factor is the basis for the constant renewal of models and intense PR and engineering battles that the two major houses (ATI and nvidia) are fighting 24/7.
Yet, all these battles would be for naught if the PC itself was not increasing data throughput in order to fuel the power of today's and tomorrow's models. If PCs were still on the ISA bus, all of today's cards would be seriously hampered by lack of data, meaning that the latest, greatest model would probably be no faster than the slowest one.
That is the reason of the existence of PCI express. Its all about increasing bandwidth. You had ISA, then PCI (33MB/s, I think), then AGP 1x, 2x, 4x, 8x, and now PCI Express is the new king of speed - you could call it AGP 16x.
More important, PCI Express will evolve in the next few years to become even faster, as will our beloved graphics cards.
Its like the car industry. Take any BMW with a 150hp 2-liter engine. You can replace the engine with a V8, 450hp version, but you had better upgrade the brakes to keep up with the new power.
PCI express is the new set of brakes.
Pascal.
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Is it better than AGP 8x? Yes. It allows for over double the bandwidth. It's not the same as "old school" PCI which uses a parallel interface. PCI Express uses serial which is more cost-effective and easier to implement in board design.
This article is great for starters:
Keep in mind that even today's fastest cards aren't stressing the AGP 8x interface. It is, however, great to have the extra headroom in place for tomorrow's technology. In addition, the new PCI bus isn't just for graphics. It can be used for any peripheral adding much needed features like "hot swappability", "low power consumption", and "power management".
~cdogg
[tab]"All paid jobs absorb and degrade the mind";
[tab][tab]- Aristotle
[tab][navy]For general rules and guidelines to get better answers, click here:[/navy] faq219-2884
This article is great for starters:
Keep in mind that even today's fastest cards aren't stressing the AGP 8x interface. It is, however, great to have the extra headroom in place for tomorrow's technology. In addition, the new PCI bus isn't just for graphics. It can be used for any peripheral adding much needed features like "hot swappability", "low power consumption", and "power management".
~cdogg
[tab]"All paid jobs absorb and degrade the mind";
[tab][tab]- Aristotle
[tab][navy]For general rules and guidelines to get better answers, click here:[/navy] faq219-2884
- Thread starter
- #5
Thank you all guys for sharing your opinion and expertise. Looks like PCI Express is a replacing technology for AGP. That would mean drop in the price for AGP cards. Didn't happen. Does it make any sense to buy new AGP cards? Is AGP doomed or we can expect a new contrstrike from APG manufacturers?
Just as with any other technology, the transition won't be overnight. Video card manufacturers will undoubtedly follow the trend as it migrates towards PCI Express. Companies like Nvidia and ATI won't care what standard they use. I'm sure for years to come, you will still see cards being made for both interfaces until AGP dies out.
Like I mentioned, AGP 8x still has a lot of headroom left. It will be quite sometime (anywhere from 2-4 years) before AGP 8x will become obsolete. The one real advantage that AGP has is that it's a dedicated bus. PCI Express will use a bus that is shared with all cards/devices that are connected to it.
Remember, Intel helped to pioneer AGP's acceptance and they are working closely with PCI Express. In the longrun, AGP will eventually die out or possibly evolve into an entirely new interface. What happens remains to be seen as to how popular PCI Express becomes. As of right now, it doesn't look good for AGP.
~cdogg
[tab]"All paid jobs absorb and degrade the mind";
[tab][tab]- Aristotle
[tab][navy]For general rules and guidelines to get better answers, click here:[/navy] faq219-2884
Like I mentioned, AGP 8x still has a lot of headroom left. It will be quite sometime (anywhere from 2-4 years) before AGP 8x will become obsolete. The one real advantage that AGP has is that it's a dedicated bus. PCI Express will use a bus that is shared with all cards/devices that are connected to it.
Remember, Intel helped to pioneer AGP's acceptance and they are working closely with PCI Express. In the longrun, AGP will eventually die out or possibly evolve into an entirely new interface. What happens remains to be seen as to how popular PCI Express becomes. As of right now, it doesn't look good for AGP.
~cdogg
[tab]"All paid jobs absorb and degrade the mind";
[tab][tab]- Aristotle
[tab][navy]For general rules and guidelines to get better answers, click here:[/navy] faq219-2884
This article on The Register states that nvidia is planning to support AGP until at least 2005 (well, that only makes nine months).
And I found a reference at Computex that seem to reinforce the validity of AGP for at least a few semesters.
Personally, I think that right now PCI Express is just another tool for marketing power to the "extreme" users (like gamers). Most people will not need it to browse the Web, send mail and type their letters. Thus, AGP should have a long future for all those who just want a screen image and couldn't be bothered with frames-per-second.
In the long run, though, PCI Express will probably take over, since a one- or two-lane card would probably have the same "sufficient" performance.
Pascal.
And I found a reference at Computex that seem to reinforce the validity of AGP for at least a few semesters.
Personally, I think that right now PCI Express is just another tool for marketing power to the "extreme" users (like gamers). Most people will not need it to browse the Web, send mail and type their letters. Thus, AGP should have a long future for all those who just want a screen image and couldn't be bothered with frames-per-second.
In the long run, though, PCI Express will probably take over, since a one- or two-lane card would probably have the same "sufficient" performance.
Pascal.
Lets take a hold of ourselves here, PCI Express will be
nagornyi
the eventual standard, of that I have no dought but the timescale I suspect will be at least 3 years for the complete change over (when manufactures stop making AGP cards and motherboards)
Now I don't know about you but as an enthusiast my PC gets a complete upgrade at least once every 18months and as PCI Express is an untested technology and proven at this point in time to have little benefits (at this time) plus the undoughted higher expense I would not recommend it at this time.
Put it this way, an AGP Geforce 6800 won't run any quicker in PCI Express form (simply because the current 8x AGP slot can easily keep up with it) at this time.
Martin
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nagornyi
the eventual standard, of that I have no dought but the timescale I suspect will be at least 3 years for the complete change over (when manufactures stop making AGP cards and motherboards)
Now I don't know about you but as an enthusiast my PC gets a complete upgrade at least once every 18months and as PCI Express is an untested technology and proven at this point in time to have little benefits (at this time) plus the undoughted higher expense I would not recommend it at this time.
Put it this way, an AGP Geforce 6800 won't run any quicker in PCI Express form (simply because the current 8x AGP slot can easily keep up with it) at this time.
Martin
We like members to GIVE and not just TAKE.
Participate and help others.
guptakaps,
That's right which is exactly why AGP will continue to be around for quite some time. Many cards out there can still run on the AGP 4x interface just fine without experiencing any difference between their 8x versions. AGP 8x is still way way way ahead of the curve in terms of bandwidth needed. I don't see AGP disappearing at all over the next 4-5 years.
PCI Express will slowly gain popularity in newer systems, but will not be the standard for at least another 2-3 years.
~cdogg
[tab]"All paid jobs absorb and degrade the mind";
[tab][tab]- Aristotle
[tab][navy]For general rules and guidelines to get better answers, click here:[/navy] faq219-2884
That's right which is exactly why AGP will continue to be around for quite some time. Many cards out there can still run on the AGP 4x interface just fine without experiencing any difference between their 8x versions. AGP 8x is still way way way ahead of the curve in terms of bandwidth needed. I don't see AGP disappearing at all over the next 4-5 years.
PCI Express will slowly gain popularity in newer systems, but will not be the standard for at least another 2-3 years.
~cdogg
[tab]"All paid jobs absorb and degrade the mind";
[tab][tab]- Aristotle
[tab][navy]For general rules and guidelines to get better answers, click here:[/navy] faq219-2884
DragonQ0105
Technical User
It's the same old game...every now and again, a new inteface is created for new technologies. Why? So that people don't just have to buy the new technology, but also a new motherboard with the new inteface.
It's happened before:
Pentiums required a Pentium Motherboard...PIIs and PIIIs also needed new motherboards...P4s again.
Admittedly, AMD have been better because after they switched back from Slot A to Socket A, all K7 CPUs from 500MHz to the latest 3200+ all use the same interface.
AGP was revolutionary - PCI was a 33MHz Bus, whereas the latest AGP 8x Bus provides 3.2GB/s bandwidth (as far as I can remember).
However, an AGP 8x Card, such as Geforce FX Seires, are fine for all games/apps that are available and will be available for years. I mean the highest "System Requirements" of a game I've ever seen was a 1GHz CPU with 256MB of RAM....and affordable systems with 3GHz CPUs with 2-3GB of DDR SDRAM are available.
Software at the moment isn't "catching up" with the Hardware very well at the moment....
PCI express is still very new and is only available on extreme high-end systems, and there is no point getting a motherboard with PCI Express Slots instead of an AGP 8x Slot until your AGP Graphics Card becomes obsolete or if PCI Express Graphics Cards become affordable.
The only thing I'm worried about is how long nVidia/ATI will continue to upgrade their Drivers for their AGP products...
It's happened before:
Pentiums required a Pentium Motherboard...PIIs and PIIIs also needed new motherboards...P4s again.
Admittedly, AMD have been better because after they switched back from Slot A to Socket A, all K7 CPUs from 500MHz to the latest 3200+ all use the same interface.
AGP was revolutionary - PCI was a 33MHz Bus, whereas the latest AGP 8x Bus provides 3.2GB/s bandwidth (as far as I can remember).
However, an AGP 8x Card, such as Geforce FX Seires, are fine for all games/apps that are available and will be available for years. I mean the highest "System Requirements" of a game I've ever seen was a 1GHz CPU with 256MB of RAM....and affordable systems with 3GHz CPUs with 2-3GB of DDR SDRAM are available.
Software at the moment isn't "catching up" with the Hardware very well at the moment....
PCI express is still very new and is only available on extreme high-end systems, and there is no point getting a motherboard with PCI Express Slots instead of an AGP 8x Slot until your AGP Graphics Card becomes obsolete or if PCI Express Graphics Cards become affordable.
The only thing I'm worried about is how long nVidia/ATI will continue to upgrade their Drivers for their AGP products...
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the main drive for pci-x was to give each pci-x card a separate connection to the chipset, instead of one shared bus for all pci cards to use.
Probably will make pci-x cards cheaper to design than the older pci cards - plus perform better - though in reality fewer and fewer people are using even a single pci card in their machines, as so much now is built into the motherboard, I can hardly see the advantages over a new system right now.
And yes, nVidia & ATI are going to keep updating their AGP drivers for a looong time, with their unified drivers, you can already see that all the pci video cards can be used with the latest drivers.
Probably will make pci-x cards cheaper to design than the older pci cards - plus perform better - though in reality fewer and fewer people are using even a single pci card in their machines, as so much now is built into the motherboard, I can hardly see the advantages over a new system right now.
And yes, nVidia & ATI are going to keep updating their AGP drivers for a looong time, with their unified drivers, you can already see that all the pci video cards can be used with the latest drivers.
DragonQ0105
Technical User
The only things that PCI is useful for at the moment are:
- Modem Cards (for Dial-Up)
- Network Adaptors (For Broadband or Home Networking)
- Sound Cards
- Graphics Cards
Now, Sound Cards are already intergrated into every single motherboard I've ever seen since 2001, and most nowadays have 6-Channel Audio Capability, and great sound quality.
LAN is included in quite a few motherboards as well (I use my Network Card supplied by my Broadband Service rather than the on-board LAN, just because they recommend it), and so Network Cards are become less and less useful...
Modems are phasing out anyway, with a greater number of people switching to Broadband every month (people who just don't like to Dial-Up all the time prefer cheaper 256Kbps options, whereas Hardcore Gamers can opt for the 3Mbps services from Blueyonder in the UK - there's something for everyone!)
PCI Graphics Cards are obsolete, with AGP 4x and 8x dominating because of their greatly increased bandwidth over the PCI BUS.
What is the use of having 5 PCI slots on the latest ATX Motherboards? Who knows...
What will be the use of having 5 PCI-Express slots on future ATX Motherboards (except perhaps for greater bandwidth Graphics Cards)? Who knows...
- Modem Cards (for Dial-Up)
- Network Adaptors (For Broadband or Home Networking)
- Sound Cards
- Graphics Cards
Now, Sound Cards are already intergrated into every single motherboard I've ever seen since 2001, and most nowadays have 6-Channel Audio Capability, and great sound quality.
LAN is included in quite a few motherboards as well (I use my Network Card supplied by my Broadband Service rather than the on-board LAN, just because they recommend it), and so Network Cards are become less and less useful...
Modems are phasing out anyway, with a greater number of people switching to Broadband every month (people who just don't like to Dial-Up all the time prefer cheaper 256Kbps options, whereas Hardcore Gamers can opt for the 3Mbps services from Blueyonder in the UK - there's something for everyone!)
PCI Graphics Cards are obsolete, with AGP 4x and 8x dominating because of their greatly increased bandwidth over the PCI BUS.
What is the use of having 5 PCI slots on the latest ATX Motherboards? Who knows...
What will be the use of having 5 PCI-Express slots on future ATX Motherboards (except perhaps for greater bandwidth Graphics Cards)? Who knows...
the motherboards that I have looked at... have (1)PCI-X 16x slot, this would be for your graphics card, then they have just a couple other PCI-1x slots... I don't think they have 5 like the old days... also.. I have a question, is there an AGP16x???
I heard about an AGP16x somewhere, but ... were they actually just using that TERM to refer to PCI-X16x?
"Posted by: jhansen
Hey gang - Going to be building a new box in the very near future. I am hearing though of the new PCI Xtreme interface being included with the ATI models but not with Nvidia. But I also understand that Nvidia is coming out with 16X technolgy. "
"Posted by: Fox
If you want the best performance, go for an AGP card, not a PCI one- especially if the main use of this PC is gaming. If your mobo doesn't have compatibility built in for AGP 16x (I don't think many would have, as it's not out yet), then the nVidia card would only function at 8x, or the maximum of your board.
"
The 2 quotes were taken from:
Fox prolly thinks he is talking about Regular PCI... but still what is this AGP 16x? has anyone else heard of it???
-SpeedyDog
I heard about an AGP16x somewhere, but ... were they actually just using that TERM to refer to PCI-X16x?
"Posted by: jhansen
Hey gang - Going to be building a new box in the very near future. I am hearing though of the new PCI Xtreme interface being included with the ATI models but not with Nvidia. But I also understand that Nvidia is coming out with 16X technolgy. "
"Posted by: Fox
If you want the best performance, go for an AGP card, not a PCI one- especially if the main use of this PC is gaming. If your mobo doesn't have compatibility built in for AGP 16x (I don't think many would have, as it's not out yet), then the nVidia card would only function at 8x, or the maximum of your board.
"
The 2 quotes were taken from:
Fox prolly thinks he is talking about Regular PCI... but still what is this AGP 16x? has anyone else heard of it???
-SpeedyDog
I made up AGP 16x as a sort of comparison.
What I meant to say is that PCI Express is the next step in technology. We had vanilla AGP, then 2x and 4x, and now we have 8x (which is hardly used). Tomorrow, instead of AGP 16x, we will have PCI Express.
AGP 16x is not a technical project as far as I know.
Pascal.
What I meant to say is that PCI Express is the next step in technology. We had vanilla AGP, then 2x and 4x, and now we have 8x (which is hardly used). Tomorrow, instead of AGP 16x, we will have PCI Express.
AGP 16x is not a technical project as far as I know.
Pascal.
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