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question please
14

question please

question please

(OP)
Hi this question is for the experts as I am not an expert.

I am wondering , if anyone can tell me the regulations with regard to making use of social networking sites at work? I work at an i.t company and they come down hard on us what is your feelings in this regard?

RE: question please

My feelings are that while you're at work, you're subject to the policies and procedures of those who are paying you.  You're on company time and most likely, using company equipment.  They have every right to dictate how their equipment is to be used and not used, and what is and is not acceptable when you're on their dime.
 

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RE: question please

Mine is that you are not a slave, and while you are a worker you are still a person with social and communication needs, and as long as it doesn't affect to your performance, your company has nothing to do or say

Cheers,
Dian

RE: question please

   

Quote (netnerdnerd9):

making use of social networking sites at work
As you said: "at work" you should be... working.  
I know, it is a new idea for many people that the employer is paying you for work, not smoking, hanging around the water cooler, or chatting with people about yesterday's kids game.

Unless 'social networking' is a part of your job.  If not, some companies allow to do so before work hours, during the breaks, lunch, or after hours.  

Imagine yourself running your own company and employing many people: would you pay your workers to use 'social networking sites' on your time?

Have fun.

---- Andy

RE: question please

What employment policies "should" be and what the "are" is two different discussions.  While wasting ime on social networks may fall under "pursuit of happiness" is it certainly not some inalienable right that overrides and employers right to direct your work.  Any organization has one goal: produce a good or service.  They hire you to aid in that effort.  Anything else is irrelevant.

If there's no job reason for being on a social network, any competent IT dept should have them blocked at the firewall level anyway.

Jeff
It's never too early to begin preparing for International Talk Like a Pirate Day
"The software I buy sucks,  The software I write sucks.  It's time to give up and have a beer..." - Me

RE: question please

==> Mine is that you are not a slave
Very true, you are not a slave; they don't own you.  However, when you accept employment with a company, you enter into a contractual arrangement.  You agree to work for them, perform the assigned tasks, and abide by their rules while on the job.  Further, the company most likely owns the Internet connection and they most likely own the workstation.  That hardware is not yours to yous as you see fit, when you see fit.

If you feel the need to engage in social networking while on the job, or submit that it's necessary as part of the job, or believe it's required for you to be in the right frame of mind in order to do your job, then sit down with your supervisor.  Make your case and if you're successful, then work out a schedule.  If not, then follow the rules.

--------------
Good Luck
To get the most from your Tek-Tips experience, please read
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RE: question please

4
In the US, labor law would favor the company on this one. It is their equipment and their time. Nothing you do on a company computer is privately yours. Ask the many people who have been fired for sending an inappropriate email or surfing the web to an inappropriate site. You do not have the intrinsic right to do non-work related tasks at work on their dime. They have to allow breaks,yes, but they do not have to provide you Internet access to play on those breaks. Leave social networking for after hours.
 

"NOTHING is more important in a database than integrity." ESquared
 

RE: question please

We all get paid to work, not to tweet. Such sites can be  and sometimes are blocked by management. That's their perogative.

As others have said, it's the company's resources being used, and they have a right to insist that company resources be used for company business only.

If I feel the urgent need to tweet, I will wait until a break or lunch and use my iPhone. No company resources used. No company time wasted.

-- Francis
Et cognoscetis veritatem, et veritas liberabit vos.

RE: question please

>If you feel the need to engage in social networking while on the job, or submit that it's necessary as part of the job, or believe it's required for you to be in the right frame of mind in order to do your job,


In the Uk it is generally recognised that your employer does not own you and that there is a certain amount of personal time (e.g. during a lunch break) in which you can do what you please (e.g. down the local internet cafe). The more enlightened companies allow this personal time to occur on company premises and using company kit - it isn't a right, but it makes snese frankly

RE: question please

In the US it is also generally recognized that your employer doesn't own you, but that they do own their equipment and can regulate it's use.

That being said, most companies I've seen rarely crack down on Internet access.  They usually block porn, gambling, extremist sites, etc, while generally leaving more mainstream sites unblocked.  They do log what sites you hit, but generally it's never brought up unless use of the Internet has become an issue for a specific employer.  

As far as social networking sites go, I think that most people would agree that they are a waste of time.  However, my employer does make wide use of professional social networking sites liked LinkedIn, and our recruiters also make use of Facebook and Twitter to get information about our company out there.

All that said, it's mostly going to depend on where you work and what the employer says, and it sounds like your employer has spoken.  Generally speaking, if you have trouble complying with reasonable requirements from your employer regarding what you do on company time with company resources then you're going to have a difficult time staying employed.

________________________________________
CompTIA A+, Network+, Server+, Security+
MCTS:Windows 7
MCTS:Hyper-V
MCTS:System Center Virtual Machine Manager
MCTS:Windows Server 2008 R2, Server Virtualization
MCSE:Security 2003
MCITP:Server Administrator
MCITP:Enterprise Administrator  

RE: question please

I live a a state where there is "at-will" employment - meaning you can leave at any time, and you can be fired for any (or no) reason (discrimination excepted, of course).

Personal use of the Internet on company time would therefore be a valid reason for termination. Now, in practice, as long as the work gets done, most employers are tolerant.

-- Francis
Et cognoscetis veritatem, et veritas liberabit vos.

RE: question please

3
Suppose "social networking" involved meeting your significant other in the store room to get up close and personal. I don't think anyone would contend that was a legitimate use of company time, regardless of how much it improves your frame of mind.

Twitter, Facebook, et. al. are just less extreme examples of that conduct. They use company equipment, company time and collect company compensation for an activity that does not benefit the company's objectives.

Your employer has no right to enquire into or control what you do with your own money on your own time. They definitely do have such rights when its their money and time.

RE: question please

Quote:


However, my employer does make wide use of professional social networking sites liked LinkedIn, and our recruiters also make use of Facebook and Twitter to get information about our company out there.

And some of the things I read now suggest that using these things are required prerequisites to finding positions.  Nothing surprising to me, since most jobs have always been about everything else but whether the applicant can do the job or not.

And if a company expects these things and then does not allow them in the workplace (social networking sites as well as the life of the party social behavior I've witnessed as expectations in my job interviews), then there's a huge credibility problem.

I'm waiting for the white paper entitled "Finding Employment in the Era of Occupational Irrelevancy"

RE: question please

I won't enter the legal aspects, as the vary from country to country and depend a lot on the company policy.

Nowadays, some Internet, let's say "social stuff" has replaced traditional communication ways like phone or letters. I may drop an e-mail instead of sending a fax or may send a message (via Facebook, mail, LinkedIn, MSN Messenger or whatever).

Would you agree a company policy forbidding phone calls would be ethically correct? I don't think so. There's no way to inforce professionalism to someone that isn't a professional. If I want to waste my time, I don't need FB or adult sites, I can just stand looking at flies flying.

So companies have to detect people being unprofessional or wasting times, not chasing after that efficient worker that sent an e-mail to his/her friends telling them he/she is late because he/she is working.

No one, and with no one I mean no one can work all day without a break, that's improductive, so I think some way of entertainment is even good for productivity.

But you can keep being dinosaurs, banning everything that can be assumed to joy or happines, and getting people into cubicles without windows so they will work and work.

Cheers,
Dian

RE: question please

(OP)
I understand this and can see that this question brings much heated debate. Do you think people should be allowed on social networking sites during office hours and if so should they be restricted?

RE: question please

Well, we use filtering software here. I have a Facebook account, a LinkedIn account, and a Twitter account.

Where I work, Facebook is totally blocked, but Twitter isn't. LinkedIn isn't blocked, but the inbox/email part of it is (go figure). I guess the logic is that Twitter isn't too much of a time-waster, but Facebook can be (since they have apps like Farmville). Personally, I use Twitter as an auxiliary news feed, and it can be a part of a business strategy. Facebook - not so much.

-- Francis
Et cognoscetis veritatem, et veritas liberabit vos.

RE: question please

==> There's no way to inforce professionalism to someone that isn't a professional.
That's true, you can't legislate professionalism.

That being said, how many professionals wouldn't already know the answer to this question?  And how many professionals would argue a case to support un-professional behavior?  Why are they called "social" network sites rather than "professional" network site?

The very fact that restrictions need to be put in place, and that fact that we're actually having this discussion speaks to the lack of professionalism in the workplace.  There would be no need for restrictions is you're staffed with professionals, because professionals know when it's appropriate, and even moreso, when it's not appropriate.

--------------
Good Luck
To get the most from your Tek-Tips experience, please read
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RE: question please

Quote:

No one, and with no one I mean no one can work all day without a break, that's improductive, so I think some way of entertainment is even good for productivity.

But you can keep being dinosaurs, banning everything that can be assumed to joy or happines, and getting people into cubicles without windows so they will work and work.  

I don't argue either of those points, but I think that they are largely irrelevant in this case.  The employer will set the acceptable use policy as well as determine how it is enforced.  What anyone else says about it is irrelevant.  You can lobby your employer to change their policies, but if they "come down hard" on users about it you're fighting a losing battle.

Some workplaces are awesome, some suck.  What you have to decide is what degree of suckiness you can live with.

________________________________________
CompTIA A+, Network+, Server+, Security+
MCTS:Windows 7
MCTS:Hyper-V
MCTS:System Center Virtual Machine Manager
MCTS:Windows Server 2008 R2, Server Virtualization
MCSE:Security 2003
MCITP:Server Administrator
MCITP:Enterprise Administrator  

RE: question please

(OP)
I understand all points of view. Put it this way if you had or do have your own company I.T based that was lucrative and effective and you had a big team of staff,what would your personal restrictions or policies be with regard to social networking sites.Bear in mind this is your own company.

 

RE: question please

Quote (netnerd9):

[I]f you had or do have your own company I.T based that was lucrative and effective and you had a big team of staff, what would your personal restrictions or policies be with regard to social networking sites. Bear in mind this is your own company.

Every company has a different corporate culture, so there is no one "fits-all" answer. Personally, I feel that unless it's related to work in some way, then save the social networking for home.

Also, I don't discuss work at all on Facebook or Twitter, even though I have several co-workers on both sites. Easier that way. People have gotten fired for venting on Facebook about their boss or their job in general (disclaimer: I love my job; I've been with the same company for 13 years).

 

-- Francis
Et cognoscetis veritatem, et veritas liberabit vos.

RE: question please

Quote (Flapeyre):

(disclaimer: I love my job; I've been with the same company for 13 years)

Translation: my boss reads this site. smile rofl

Greg
People demand freedom of speech as a compensation for the freedom of thought which they seldom use. Kierkegaard

RE: question please

traingamer:

He isn't, AFAIK. But other people in the office might be - it's a large company.

-- Francis
Et cognoscetis veritatem, et veritas liberabit vos.

RE: question please

(OP)
That makes total sense and I COMPLETELY get what you are saying! Some of those social networking sites particularly facebook actually has a mixture of work/friends/family ect contacts on it. I can imagine what will happen if you were say looking for a new job with better pay and your company found out about it due to a status!

RE: question please

Quote (CajunCenturion):

The very fact that restrictions need to be put in place, and that fact that we're actually having this discussion speaks to the lack of professionalism in the workplace

Well, that's an approach. Mine is slightly different, based on responsability. I don't want non-professional people sitting in my office behind a corporate firewall, I want them out.

So I assign objectives, and if you can make them, then you're a professional, I don't mind if you get them via Facebook or if you have time enough to maintain your blog at working hours. And if it's the case, it's not a worker's fault, the management is guilty of lack of resource optimization.

Said that, I'd like an open corporate environment with a policy to cover legal aspects (so the company states whatever you do is up to you and you're responsible fro that). And some kind of audir rules in case you detect something fraudulent.

I mean, don't forbid as first approach, give them a chance and you will know what you have.

Cheers,
Dian

RE: question please

==> I don't want non-professional people sitting in my office behind a corporate firewall,
Nobody does.

==> So I assign objectives, and if you can make them, then you're a professional
Yes and no.  Meeting the objectives is part of being a professional.  Image also matters.  I had someone who was extremely talented, and never, never missed an assignment and always provided high quality work.  I could also count on her to deliver the goods; however, that's only half the picture.  Her other behavior cost us.  Her on-line personna reflected on the entire company, and ultimately, she become a larger liability than she was an asset, not just to the company, but to herself as well.

Responsibility and professionalism is a total package; it's not just about completing assigned tasks.

--------------
Good Luck
To get the most from your Tek-Tips experience, please read
FAQ181-2886: How can I maximize my chances of getting an answer?
As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein

RE: question please

"Would you agree a company policy forbidding phone calls would be ethically correct?"

Both ethically and legally correct, yes. A company has the right to regulate what you do on their grounds and during the hours you are being paid. They are under no obligation to let you make personal calls.

I've worked plenty of places that forbade personal phone calls during work hours or using their equipment. You could use your cell phone during a break, but even then, I've worked places where you had to leave the building to use the cell phone.  

"NOTHING is more important in a database than integrity." ESquared
 

RE: question please

This issue is far simpler than many are making it seem.
The company policy will dictate whether you can/should use social networking web technology at work, and if so, for what purposes.

Most forward-thinking employers have already incorporated themselves in the world of social media as a marketing vehicle and many have encouraged their employees to do so if its consistent with the company's direction and methods of going to market.

If its against company policy to get on your Facebook using work computers, then its pretty clear cut, isn't it?

If you MUST check your facebook or twitter, do it on your Blackberry or iPhone on your breaks or at lunch...issue solved.

This is company dependent and as such any HR organization worth its salt has already issued policy on this. If not, they must be living in the dark.

This seems pretty clear cut to me.

-HH

Real trouble call:
Customer: "I have a huge problem. A friend has put a screensaver on my computer, but every time I move the mouse, it disappears!"  

RE: question please

SQL Sister - The european legislation (which must be followed in the UK) would disagree with you - a test case decided that an individual was entitled to a private life both at work and at home.
 

Fee

"The cure for anything is salt water – sweat, tears, or the sea." Isak Dinesen

RE: question please

willif: Out of curiosity, what legislation are you referring to?

RE: question please

Fee, I believe the rulings - based indeed on the increasingly infamous "everyone has the right to respect for his private and family life, his home and his correspondence" clause in the European Convention on Human Rights, and which resulted in the Home Office issuing new guidance to companies - were related to whether private phone calls at work could be monitored or recorded (the ruling says not), but is not specific about whether such calls should be allowed in the first place. A few papers at the time seem of the ECHR ruling to have got confused.

RE: question please

Quote (SQLSister):

A company has the right to regulate what you do on their grounds and during the hours you are being paid. They are under no obligation to let you make personal calls.

Back to the slaves. They're not hiring my person, they're hiring my job. No company can force me to disconnect from my social, personal or familiar environment. And I find really amazing that you can ethically approve that.

Cheers,
Dian

RE: question please

Dian,

Let's say I worked for you. How much time can I spend (in an 8-hour day, 5-day week) on my "social, personal or familiar environment" per day? 15 minutes? 1 hour? 2 hours?

Because, I would like at LEAST two hours a day, please. I have Twitter updates to read, a Facebook profile to update, and when else am I going to forward those joke emails to all my contacts? From home??? The other six hours, I will spend doing work for your company. That gives you 30 hours of my exceptional work per week. But you will pay me for 40. Is that OK? I mean, Dian, I'm not your slave...
 

RE: question please

Quote:

No company can force me to disconnect from my social, personal or familiar environment. And I find really amazing that you can ethically approve that.

Of course they can't ... but they can certainly decline to pay you for attending to your social, personal or family matters in preference to what they are paying you for.

It seems real simple. They pay you to perform certain tasks. Instead you divert into doing something else.

If there is an ethical failure here it is yours. You are expecting the company to fulfill their part of the bargin (i.e. paying you) but you are not doing what you commited to do in return for that payment.

RE: question please

I don't say social networks are the one and only of the worker rigths, but I find totally useless spendig so much time and effort forbidding them.

You have two children: one of them can get chocolates because he eats one or two. The other one can't because he doesn't know when to stop. Your sollution: no one eats chocolates.

I've seen a lot of people doing his job efficiently without any kind of rules. I can access a lot of places where I don't go when I'm busy. And if I don't do my job, then I would expect my boss to investigate, and fire me if he detects I'm losing my time, with Facebook or with origami.

Cheers,
Dian

RE: question please

Quote (Dian):


And if I don't do my job, then I would expect my boss to investigate, and fire me if he detects I'm losing my time, with Facebook or with origami
Yes, this is the main point several here have tried to make. You now seem to agree that it is at least expected that an employer will take action against an employee who uses paid time for non-work activities. I think it is ethical as well. An employer has the right to control what an employee does on work time (barring emergencies, and break/lunch time),

Quote:

You have two children: one of them can get chocolates because he eats one or two. The other one can't because he doesn't know when to stop. Your sollution: no one eats chocolates
The first kid gets the cholcolates, and the second kid gets fired !!! winky smile

Bad analogy, though... Employers that ban Facebook et. al. do so on their computers, during work hours. Not after hours. Work does not constitute most people's entire lives. So, both "children" in this case would only be without their "chocolates" during work hours. "Chocolate" during work time is not an employee's right. They can gorge on their "chocolates", or their "origami", to their heart's content at home.

RE: question please

==>The other one can't because he doesn't know when to stop. Your sollution: no one eats chocolates.
To make your analogy fit, the solution would be that the company stops providing chocolate and states that anyone may bring their own chocolate, but it may only be consumed in the break room, and only during authorized breaks.

--------------
Good Luck
To get the most from your Tek-Tips experience, please read
FAQ181-2886: How can I maximize my chances of getting an answer?
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RE: question please

(OP)
Wow guys, some really interesting stuff here,I asked the question and am getting so much additional food for thought.

To add a spanner in the works so to speak this is really an interesting dilemma. Do you think it may be a bit too far fetched? http://mytrampingview.blogspot.com/2009/04/sick-employee-fired-because-of-facebook.html

I can totally see this type of thing happening all of the world do you think its fair? Should companys be able to judge people on this? very catch 22 in my opinion.

I think it is a good example of the magnitude of the problem!

 

RE: question please

I'd like to ask another question - how many of us are responding to this thread (which isn't technical) during work hours?

Hmmm?

Fee

"The cure for anything is salt water – sweat, tears, or the sea." Isak Dinesen

RE: question please

2
Heh.... I just had a funny thought.

I wonder if the original thread was started while the poster was at work. :D

I would consider Tek-Tips a social site.

 

Just my 2¢

"What the captain doesn't realize is that we've secretly replaced his Dilithium Crystals with new Folger's Crystals."

--Greg  http://parallel.tzo.com
 

RE: question please

==> I would consider Tek-Tips a social site.
That depends on which fora you visit.  For some of them, it's nothing but social; however, for others, it's all technical.
 

--------------
Good Luck
To get the most from your Tek-Tips experience, please read
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RE: question please

Greg,

I would consider certain forums of Tek-Tips to be "social networking", including this one.  But on the other hand, I would not classify many of the forums here as social...If it weren't for some for the experts here volunteering their time and knowledge, I can honestly say some of my work would have been much more difficult.  While I would consider many of the experts friends in a sense of the word, their help has allowed me to complete some jobs much more efficiently and timely than I would have otherwise.  I treat this site as a necessary job-resource, with a few "social" forums thrown in.

=======================================
People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world. (Calvin from Calvin And Hobbs)

Robert L. Johnson III
CCNA, CCDA, MCSA, CNA, Net+, A+, CHDP
VB.NET Programmer
 

RE: question please

Oh, I agree 100%.  The brain trust here at Tek-Tips is nothing short of phenomenal.  I use Tek-Tips throughout the day, for both its technical and social aspects.

Luckily, I'm the network administrator, so I shouldn't get in too much trouble over it. ;)

 

Just my 2¢

"What the captain doesn't realize is that we've secretly replaced his Dilithium Crystals with new Folger's Crystals."

--Greg  http://parallel.tzo.com
 

RE: question please

Never! Forbid, ban and destroy tek-tips from your corporate environment! Giving any piece of liberty for employees will destroy your company!

Now serious. During my professional live I've found a strong correlation between lack of performance and network prohibitions. I cannot tell if the egg was there before the chicken, but that what I've seen.

If your staff is professional, knows their objectives and is commited to achieve them, no social network will stop them. If they don't care about that, then I would think if firewall rules are the way to go or I'd need to do other things.

Cheers,
Dian

RE: question please

Quote:

I'd like to ask another question - how many of us are responding to this thread (which isn't technical) during work hours?

I wish I *had* work hours to post this in...but anyway, when I was working, access to tek-tips was not allowed.

I'm waiting for the white paper entitled "Finding Employment in the Era of Occupational Irrelevancy"

RE: question please

Dian, you need to grow up. The company has no business reason to allow you to do whatever you want on their property. If you don't like it, you will limit your employment prospects greatly because most companies will ban sites they see no reason to let you play on during work hours.

Honestly, I have never worked anywhere since there was Internet access at work where some sites were not allowed. The company knows there is no business reason for you to go to those sites and so bans them to avoid viruses, to avoid using too much bandwidth (I've never worked anywhere that allows streaming radio for instance using the company Internet connection), to avoid too much time spend not working and to avoid people viewing things (porn sites) that are not appropriate for work and which could get them in legal trouble if someone complained.  Facebook is often banned because there is no legitimate work reason for you to use it at work. Tek-tips is usually not banned because there is a legitimate work reason to be there for an IT person. HR people might not be able to get to Tek-tips but can see Facebook as they have legitimate work reasson to use it to screen applicants.

"NOTHING is more important in a database than integrity." ESquared
 

RE: question please

Quote (Diancecht):

Now serious. During my professional live I've found a strong correlation between lack of performance and network prohibitions.

I'll assume, based on your posts here, that you have had a relatively short professional life.

At my current company (a very very large company in the healthcare industry), all external email is prohibited by policy and blocked by firewalls (not very expensive). Social networks, streaming media sites and many other types of sites are blocked in the same manner.

I've also worked at smaller companies where such sites were only banned by policy. As one of the people enforcing that policy, I usually turned a blind eye to transgressions that occurred around the lunch hour. But I had no qualms about reporting the constant use of social and dating sites which caused the firing of multiple employees. Each of them knew that we logged every site visited and chose to do so anyway.

Greg
People demand freedom of speech as a compensation for the freedom of thought which they seldom use. Kierkegaard

RE: question please

Quote:

During my professional live I've found a strong correlation between lack of performance and network prohibitions.

And that would be the result of factual, unbiased research, would it?

More likely it is the result of your own wishful thinking since I'm not aware of anyone who has even attempted to correlate internet access restrictions with the corporate bottom line.

And while we're at it

Quote:

And if I don't do my job, then I would expect my boss to investigate, and fire me if he detects I'm losing my time, with Facebook or with origami.

Sounds like a wrongful dismissal lawsuit to me.

If there were no posted speed limits and the cops gave you a speeding ticket based on their Ad Hoc judgement that you were going too fast, most judges would throw that out on the grounds that no law about speed existed and could not therefore be enforced.

Similarly here, with no policies about appropriate internet use, there can be no grounds for dismissal based on inappropriate use.

RE: question please

[quote]And that would be the result of factual, unbiased research, would it?

More likely it is the result of your own wishful thinking since I'm not aware of anyone who has even attempted to correlate internet access restrictions with the corporate bottom line.[quote]

Like the say, the plural of "anecdote" is not "data".

________________________________________
CompTIA A+, Network+, Server+, Security+
MCTS:Windows 7
MCTS:Hyper-V
MCTS:System Center Virtual Machine Manager
MCTS:Windows Server 2008 R2, Server Virtualization
MCSE:Security 2003
MCITP:Server Administrator
MCITP:Enterprise Administrator
Certified Quest vWorkspace Administrator

RE: question please

Well, looks like the have the censorship forces countering. Don't worry, I have an English dictionary by my side.

Quote (SQLSister):

Dian, you need to grow up

As I'm tall enough, I'll take I'm immature because I think that a responsible and professional worker doesn't need any site restriction to do his job.

Could be, but maybe I'm not the one who has to change his mind to the new times. Internet is becoming a real part of people's life and it's a powerful tool to get information of all kinds. It's a dynamical environment where todays rules won't be valid for tomorrow.

Just a while ago (even now), I guess many of you would agree to ban the blogspot.com domain. But there are a lot of technical, opinion and valuable blogs. Will you examine one by one to detect which one is useful and which one is not? Why don't let your workers choose?

I also guess many of you would have said some time ago: "I won't give Internet access to the employees, that's a complete waste of time".

Quote (Golom):

If there were no posted speed limits and the cops gave you a speeding ticket based on their Ad Hoc judgement that you were going too fast, most judges would throw that out on the grounds that no law about speed existed and could not therefore be enforced.

So the solution for you would be to trick cars so they can't go faster than the maximum limit (120 kmph here)? I don't say there shouldn't be policies. Of course a porn site access can't be tolerable in a corporate environment. What I say is that a personal e-mail or a social network is not a crime.

When I hear about network access restrictios to Facebook, what comes to my mind is China government.



  
 

Cheers,
Dian

RE: question please

Quote (Diancecht):

a responsible and professional worker doesn't need any site restriction to do his job.
Perhaps not but the sad fact is that not every worker qualifies as responsible and/or professional.
In a similar vein, society would need no laws if everyone was by nature, law abiding.

Quote (Diancecht):

So the solution for you would be to trick cars so they can't go faster than the maximum limit (120 kmph here)?
That's a rather tired and transparent logical fallacy called a straw man.
Make up some weak argument, attribute it to someone else and then point out how absurd it is.

No. The solution is that we have laws, in this case posted speed limits, and a justice system to enforce them. In the company context the management of the company makes decisions about what actions its employees can or cannot take with the intent that those permissions or prohibitions serve some objective of the company. Sometimes those rules are wise and effective and at other times, less so.
One thing is however, quite clear. The company does have the right to promulgate such regulations, bound only by the legal framework in which they operate. You may disagree with their policy regarding internet access but, having accepted employment with them, you have implicitly (and in many companies, explicitly) agreed to abide by their rules. The condition is that those rules must be made clear. Something like "Use the internet responsibly." is more a fond hope than a statement of policy.

Quote (Diancecht):

I also guess many of you would have said some time ago: "I won't give Internet access to the employees, that's a complete waste of time".
Since I'm really old and was around when the internet first came into being (thanks, Al Gore) ... Yes ... I would have said that because at that time it was a complete waste of time from a business benefit perspective. Times and the internet, have changed, and my attitude along with them. I regard the internet as an indespensible resource for any company operating in today's business environment. That doesn't equate with a need to provide access where there is no identifiable business benefit and is conceivably detrimental to the business's objectives.

Quote (Diancecht):

What I say is that a personal e-mail or a social network is not a crime.

In the sense of a crime being a violation of the criminal code, of course it isn't. As an employee of a company however, you are bound by more than the criminal code. It is also not a crime to cruise porn sites but it is certainly a violation of policy in most companies.

You certainly can lobby your management to amend their policy about social networking or personal emails and, if they are reasonable and you present cogent arguments, they may respond favorably. Unless and until they do however, you are bound by the policies they have in place and your choices are to adhere to those policies, break the rules and risk disciplinary action, or quit and get a job somewhere else.

Quote (Diancecht):

When I hear about network access restrictios to Facebook, what comes to my mind is China government.

China? I was expecting an example of Godwin's Law to appear at about this stage of the proceedings.

RE: question please

You have two employees: Piffy and Squiffle.  On Monday morning you give each a list of 75 tasks they need to have complete by the end of the day on Friday.  Piffy and Squiffle both work hard and both complete their lists perfectly be he end of the day on Thursday.  Piffy spends all day Friday screwing around on Facebook.  Squiffle, on his own, finds another 20 useful tasks to complete.

By the measure of assigned tasks, etc. they are both excellent employees, but wouldn't you rather have more Squiffles than Piffys?

Jeff
It's never too early to begin preparing for International Talk Like a Pirate Day
"The software I buy sucks,  The software I write sucks.  It's time to give up and have a beer..." - Me

RE: question please

It really is up to the employer.

Most employers that I have dealt with will say that updating your facebook on your lunchbreak on company computers isn't a big deal.

However, even if I only spend 5 minutes an hour Tweeting or updating my facebook page, that works out to 3.3 hours per week that you got paid to sluff off.

That is 8% of your work week.  It doesn't sound like a big deal at first, however you should consider taking an 8% pay cut; because your boss is looking at it as you're wasting 8% of your time.

It is not YOUR computer, it is not YOUR network.  You are there to do a job.  It is no different if I took 5 minutes out of each hour to do basket weaving in my office.

Eventually, my boss is going to notice the baskets, and wonder how I have time to weave a basket a week on HIS dollar, and a) give me more work, b) give me less money or c) find an employee without a basket weaving addiction.

 

Just my 2¢

"What the captain doesn't realize is that we've secretly replaced his Dilithium Crystals with new Folger's Crystals."

--Greg  http://parallel.tzo.com
 

RE: question please

Quote:

Eventually, my boss is going to notice the baskets, and wonder how I have time to weave a basket a week on HIS dollar, and a) give me more work, b) give me less money or c) find an employee without a basket weaving addiction.

I'm sorry to hear about your problem, Greg, and even more sad to discover that there are no clinics that treat basket weaving addiction.  I think we need to get a telethon started.

________________________________________
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Certified Quest vWorkspace Administrator

RE: question please

   
I wonder if we would have this discussion if I would paraphrase the OP this way:

Quote:

I am wondering, if anyone can tell me the regulations with regard to sleeping at work? I work at an i.t company and they come down hard on us what is your feelings in this regard?
I don't know about you, but I always feel better refreshed and ready to work after a nice, long nap.  My boss will be ecstatic to know that I will be a lot better and productive employee after 3 hours snooze....sleeping2 sleeping  

Have fun.

---- Andy

RE: question please

MasterRacker
Perhaps it's a personal lack on my own part, but I think it would be hard for me to maintain a straight face if I got a resume from anyone named Piffy or Squiffle.

On the other hand,(and this is true story) we once sent a team out to a Navy activity consisting of three guys whose last names were:
Boozer
Looney
and Loop

The activity called us up to see if it was a joke when they got the visit request letter. For some reason Piffy and Squiffle brought this story back up from the recesses of my memory of 30 years ago.

"NOTHING is more important in a database than integrity." ESquared
 

RE: question please

SQLSister,
Glad I could help restore your memory. winky smile

Actually, those are first names.  They're brothers: Piffy and Squiffle Blogoneepler.

Jeff
It's never too early to begin preparing for International Talk Like a Pirate Day
"The software I buy sucks,  The software I write sucks.  It's time to give up and have a beer..." - Me

RE: question please

I've just checked the wording on my contract, and it states that I shall in good faith devote all of my time attention and skill to the busines and to act loyally and faithfully.

That doesn't remove my right to nose on facebook at lunchtime, but it does make me think more carefully about it!

Fee

"The cure for anything is salt water – sweat, tears, or the sea." Isak Dinesen

RE: question please

willif
Seems you have a faith-based job (good faith, faithfully).

If they really wanted to, a company could conceivably construe ... devote all of my time ... to mean that none of your time can be used at your own discretion.

RE: question please

Golom - I don't - honestly. Be I guess you could say I do work for a company that has a great culture.

Fee

"The cure for anything is salt water – sweat, tears, or the sea." Isak Dinesen

RE: question please

Quote:

However, even if I only spend 5 minutes an hour Tweeting or updating my facebook page, that works out to 3.3 hours per week that you got paid to sluff off.

That is 8% of your work week.  It doesn't sound like a big deal at first, however you should consider taking an 8% pay cut; because your boss is looking at it as you're wasting 8% of your time.

It is not YOUR computer, it is not YOUR network.  You are there to do a job.  It is no different if I took 5 minutes out of each hour to do basket weaving in my office.

Dare I ask your interpretation should the employee spend an extra 40 minutes at work a day or more beyond his/her given hours working?
 

RE: question please

Quote:


Dare I ask your interpretation should the employee spend an extra 40 minutes at work a day or more beyond his/her given hours working?

There was no interpretation given.  I simply ran the numbers; if a person spends 5 minutes an hour in a 40 hour work week, that would be 200 minutes.

There are 2400 minutes in a work week (40 * 60).  Take the 200 minutes divided by 2400 minutes, gives you .0833, or a little over 8% of the work week spent.

That would mean that a maximum productivity would be only 92%.

Any interpretation is left up to the reader; but if a person were to be docked their pay for the amount of time spent on social networking sites at 5 minutes per hour worked, that would work out to an 8% pay cut.

 

Just my 2¢

"What the captain doesn't realize is that we've secretly replaced his Dilithium Crystals with new Folger's Crystals."

--Greg  http://parallel.tzo.com
 

RE: question please

Quote (MasterRacker):

You have two employees: Piffy and Squiffle.  On Monday morning you give each a list of 75 tasks they need to have complete by the end of the day on Friday.  Piffy and Squiffle both work hard and both complete their lists perfectly be he end of the day on Thursday.  Piffy spends all day Friday screwing around on Facebook.  Squiffle, on his own, finds another 20 useful tasks to complete.

By the measure of assigned tasks, etc. they are both excellent employees, but wouldn't you rather have more Squiffles than Piffys?

If I say "Yes" would mean anything? And then I will be the one using simplystic arguments ...

Anyway, do doy think you can turn Piffys into Squiffles by adding a firewall rule? First, you will have to wonder why are you under-assigning tasks to your employees and after that you will need a management system to keep track of what does each of them.

With that, you will have a high performance company and you will have knowledge about wether you have Piffys or Squiffles with you. With or without firewall rules.

Cheers,
Dian

RE: question please

Quote:


First, you will have to wonder why are you under-assigning tasks to your employees and after that you will need a management system to keep track of what does each of them.

OK, you're starting to ruffle some feathers here now.

Let me give you a dose of the "Real world".

US Steel has installed GPS trackers on their production trucks.  These trucks don't get stolen, they carry something like 260 tons of rock in a single trip.  The reason for the GPS tracking is to make sure that they keep moving, because the drivers would pull off and take a nap.

The management system HAS been installed there.  By your arguments, shouldn't they be allowed to pull over, pull out their laptop (or go use a company's laptop) and get on Facebook for a little while each day, or each trip?

The owner of the company that I work at now has asked me to either monitor or completely block Internet access from the laboratory.

The bottom line is, YES.  You work for the company, YES, they can tell you whether or not you can use the Internet for personal use, and YES, they will be more than happy to show you the door if it becomes a problem.

Other than wages, sick time, and so forth you have no "Rights" as an employee.  You do not have the "Right" to check your Facebook.  You do not have the "Right" to use the phone for personal calls.  You do not even have the "Right" to be treated fairly, without fear of nepotism or a butt-kissing "Yes" man getting promoted before you.

You DO have the right to do a good job, to get a paycheck, so you can pay for your home, groceries, and so forth.  You have the right, through your hard work, to keep yourself from being homeless (hopefully).

Now I'll step off of my soap box; I have to leave for work.  Because *I* realize that like a MAJORITY of Americans, I'm about 2 paychecks away from being homeless; I *NEED* my job in order to survive and not be on the soup line.  And if that means I have to wait until I get home to tweet, so be it.
 

Just my 2¢

"What the captain doesn't realize is that we've secretly replaced his Dilithium Crystals with new Folger's Crystals."

--Greg  http://parallel.tzo.com
 

RE: question please

Quote (Diancecht):

What I say is that a personal e-mail or a social network is not a crime.

That is correct in most cases.

However, it is also correct that it is not a crime to prevent your employees from using company equipment for personal use.


If you are a marketing firm that uses social networking sites for your clients, then I would expect that your employees could access social sites. Indeed, I would expect the employer to encourage usage in that case.

We all understand that the internet is a major part of both the business and the personal world. If a company that you work for bans internet access to something that would simplify or enhance its business, it is your right and your duty to point it out to them so they can change that policy.


I personally believe that all people should have the right to access an internet that is not censored.

I do not believe that you have that right while using your employer's equipment.



As you apparently do not speak English as a native language, I have tried to avoid idiomatic phrases.

Greg
People demand freedom of speech as a compensation for the freedom of thought which they seldom use. Kierkegaard

RE: question please

Quote (gbaughma):

The management system HAS been installed there.  By your arguments, shouldn't they be allowed to pull over, pull out their laptop (or go use a company's laptop) and get on Facebook for a little while each day, or each trip?
By my arguments, they should be allowed to get on Facebook while charging or discharching as long as it doesn't affect their job.

Quote (gbaughma):

Other than wages, sick time, and so forth you have no "Rights" as an employee.  You do not have the "Right" to check your Facebook.  You do not have the "Right" to use the phone for personal calls.  You do not even have the "Right" to be treated fairly, without fear of nepotism or a butt-kissing "Yes" man getting promoted before you.
Sad but true. What I say is that things shouldn't be that way.

Quote (gbaughma):

Now I'll step off of my soap box; I have to leave for work.  Because *I* realize that like a MAJORITY of Americans, I'm about 2 paychecks away from being homeless; I *NEED* my job in order to survive and not be on the soup line.  And if that means I have to wait until I get home to tweet, so be it.
And I really hope you keep your job for a long time, but that cannot be the reason to let companies do whatever they like. Industry revolution got that for us, let's keep and improve for our children.

Quote (traingamer):

However, it is also correct that it is not a crime to prevent your employees from using company equipment for personal use.
Totally correct, and inforced by the law, but I was asked for my feelings, and I really feel that shouldn't be that way.

Quote (traingamer):

As you apparently do not speak English as a native language, I have tried to avoid idiomatic phrases.
I do appreciate it, but feel free to use them. I use this forum as language education, so the more effort I need to read a post, the more I learn to write the next one

 

Cheers,
Dian

RE: question please

(OP)
The question I still wonder is does it effect a job?

people argue about this all the time due to the factor that some people in I.T that I know say they browse the net and do stuff anyway while others claim that Facebook is a huge distraction what is your views people. thanks

RE: question please

If it didn't affect performace here where I work, we would not have blocked Facebook at all.

-- Francis
Et cognoscetis veritatem, et veritas liberabit vos.

RE: question please

I guess with reference to Facebook in general, the question is:

What business purpose could it possibly have?
 

Just my 2¢

"What the captain doesn't realize is that we've secretly replaced his Dilithium Crystals with new Folger's Crystals."

--Greg  http://parallel.tzo.com
 

RE: question please

Quote (gbaughma):

OK, you're starting to ruffle some feathers here now.
Agreed! And it's becoming difficult to maintain a civil tone but I'll try.

Quote (Diancecht):

Industry revolution got that for us, let's keep and improve for our children.

Yeah ... right. And we should all bow down because who can possibly not want to "improve for our children"?

This is a complete nonsense argument.

The issue is the appropriateness of limits that may be imposed by a company on their employee's activities using the company's time and resources.

Don't conflate that with the history of the Industrial Revolution or the challenges that may confront future generations. That makes you appear to be someone whose debating points have dried up and you are now diverting off into irrelevancy.

I'm almost expecting "social justice", "imperialist exploiters" and "save the planet" to make their appearance in your next missives.

RE: question please

Quote (gbaughma):

I guess with reference to Facebook in general, the question is:
What business purpose could it possibly have?

Asnswer: Monkey monkey.  

-- Francis
Et cognoscetis veritatem, et veritas liberabit vos.

RE: question please

Quote (gbaughma):

What business purpose could [Facebook] possibly have?

I could see, as I think someone pointed out earlier, that if you have some kind of directed grass-roots campaign going on, that you might have one or two employees checking and updating Facebook regularly.  But I haven't yet mustered sufficient imagination to see a situation where you could make a business case for universal Facebook access.

But I could probably make a business case for giving access to more special-purpose social-networking sites.  LinkedIn, where the emphasis is less on "social" and more on "networking", is one example.


Want to ask the best questions?  Read Eric S. Raymond's essay "How To Ask Questions The Smart Way".  TANSTAAFL!

RE: question please

LinkedIn I would agree with, if you were a headhunter.

Facebook, MAYBE, if you were an HR person.

 

Just my 2¢

"What the captain doesn't realize is that we've secretly replaced his Dilithium Crystals with new Folger's Crystals."

--Greg  http://parallel.tzo.com
 

RE: question please

Yeah, I hadn't thought of Facebook for HR people, but you're right, a lot of employers now look to see what your online presence is like before hiring you.


Want to ask the best questions?  Read Eric S. Raymond's essay "How To Ask Questions The Smart Way".  TANSTAAFL!

RE: question please

(OP)
thanks hehe yes will ask better questions. I also know that some people at offices go through other methods if Facebook is blocked. I am not a sn junkie I just am sick of the debate time and time again. It is with all my friends in I.T related industries.

RE: question please

netnerdnerd9:
Don't take the link to "How To Ask Questions The Smart Way" personally -- it's been my signature line in Tek-Tips for years.

But to address your question, what do you mean by "affect the job"?


Want to ask the best questions?  Read Eric S. Raymond's essay "How To Ask Questions The Smart Way".  TANSTAAFL!

RE: question please

I can access Facebook from my company network, and I do. Not regularly, but occasionally.

I work for a pharmaceutical company, and the diseases we treat have patient groups on facebook, so I access that to make asure I keep up-to-date with the feelings of the patients we are caring for. I think that's a definate requirement.

(And yes, I might update my own status occasionally when I'm there!)

Fee

"The cure for anything is salt water – sweat, tears, or the sea." Isak Dinesen

RE: question please

Quote (Golom):

I'm almost expecting "social justice", "imperialist exploiters" and "save the planet" to make their appearance in your next missives.
So I cannot invoke emotional reasons because you don't agree with me, but you don't find out of scope mentioning the unemployment problem. A little suspcicious.

Anyway, I give up. There was a sentence like "sit down in front of a river and you will see your enemie's body floating".

- I use webmail to register to some websites for documents, debates or communities and avoid my corporate e-mail being bombed with spam
- I use youtube to see some product demos
- I don't use Facebook, but there are useful communities in there, and some emerging companies share useful information via its profiles
- I use blogs (blogspot, wordpress, ...) to get info

Most of them are forbidden by my companie policies and software but I know how to get rid of this. I even managed to convince the security department to allow blogspot.com for all the company. I know I'm doing my job ok and I feel satisfied. I sometimes check my mail, yes, I also sometimes go for a coffee.

Appart from that, corporate environments will turn more and more open, Internet will be seen as a valuable resource rather that a time loss and productiviy will be measured and prized proactivity instead of trying to force it with prohibitions.

That's happening, it's just a matter of time, now you can choose between going with new times or staying in the Middle Age.

 

Cheers,
Dian

RE: question please

Quote:

Most of them are forbidden by my companie policies and software but I know how to get rid of this
It doesn't matter what a company's policies actually are. Right or wrong, they are to be followed as a condition of employment.  Violation of known policy is grounds for discipline or dismissal in any sane environment.

Quote:

Appart from that, corporate environments will turn more and more open, Internet will be seen as a valuable resource rather that a time loss and productiviy will be measured and prized proactivity instead of trying to force it with prohibitions.
Completely correct and totally separate from personal use of the Internet on company time.
No one has said that Facebook, etc. should be blocked just because it's Facebook.  Personal use of Facebook should be prohibited.

Being a good employee means a lot more than simply completing all assigned tasks. Once the assigned tasks are done, slack time should still be spent on work related activities, above and beyond, that will contribute to profitability.

Jeff
It's never too early to begin preparing for International Talk Like a Pirate Day
"The software I buy sucks,  The software I write sucks.  It's time to give up and have a beer..." - Me

RE: question please

Quote:

Most of them are forbidden by my companie policies and software but I know how to get rid of this

Seems like you are the one with the ethical issues not the company for having and enforcing policies that are perfectly legal, valid and not at all unethical. Knowingly violating them just because you are a spoiled brat is an ethical violation. Lots of people have been fired for less than this. The company owns your time while you are work (with the exception of legally defined breaks). Even for breaks the company is under no obligation to provide entertainment, just time away from work. It has the right to set rules and enforce those rules. The company is not required to keep you employed if you violate those rules.  

"NOTHING is more important in a database than integrity." ESquared
 

RE: question please

(OP)
I completely understand what it means to be a good employee. I think the problem comes in when these sites eg:Facebook get abused and then this is when the dilemma comes in.

It is easy to speculate but when someone is abusing it then it can be counerproductive.I think some people find it hard to limit their usage and should just not be using it in some instances.

Just my opinion for what it is worth!

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