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Black outputs as dark gray?

Black outputs as dark gray?

Black outputs as dark gray?

(OP)
When I export as PDF and cut and paste black objects from indesign into photoshop they appear as dark grey not black same as pasting from illustrator, I have ticked cmyk when importing to ps but still shows as black, both colour spaces are the same but even so pdfs are showing grey as well outside of photoshop. us web coated swop2 is selected as the colour space for cmyk in indesign, why is it not exporting black  
Replies continue below

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RE: Black outputs as dark gray?

I'm pretty sure it's a screen thing. It will print fine I'd imagine.

In InDesign and photoshop go to the preferences and select

Appearance of Black

and On Screen Display all blacks as rich black

Printing/exporting output all blacks as rich blck

*These settings are only relate to RGB, like your screen and digital printers (even if printers have cmyk toners or cartridges for printing they still use a RGB profile - hence they are really rgb)

 

http://www.doozler.blogspot.com/

RE: Black outputs as dark gray?

(OP)
Thanks, still makes no sense to me, if I paste a black object into idesign from illustrator colour it black in indesign and cut and paste back to illy it looks dark grey not black any more compared next to the same shape before it was copied, also indesign shows the non edit pallet black as c69m68y64k74 where as black in ps and illy is c75m68y67k90 I have no idea what is happening here export is set to black, all colour profiles the same, how do I know which is the right black?

RE: Black outputs as dark gray?

Is your Illustrator file in CMYK or RGB?

FILE>DOCUMENT COLOUR SETUP

Also there shouldn't be that much of a difference?

Why are you copying and pasting from one to the other? Why not just use File>Place in InDesign to place your Illustrator into the layout?

Chances are that the colour will change again when you Export to PDF, based on your Destination settings.


What is it exactly you're trying to do? I don't understand why you're copying and pasting from one  app to the other.

http://www.doozler.blogspot.com/

RE: Black outputs as dark gray?

(OP)
Thanks for helping, i made a shape in illy and pasted it into indesign coloured it black, I wanted to edit it more in illy because its much better with the full controlls and pallets etc, so I cut from indesign and pasted into illy seeing it now looks off black, then I was worried Im not actually filling in black in indesign, when I go to check the black CMYK values in id they are different to illy and ps,the bottom line is which is the real black I have no idea, all are set to cmyk as I thought it was a rgb missmatch at first,I also notice slight outlines with objects pasted from illy which are black, its a nightmare to say the least, many thanks for helping     

RE: Black outputs as dark gray?

I still don't know why you're copying and pasting. Why not just use the File>Place command in InDesign to bring in illustrator stuff.

And File>Export and eps or pdf from InDesign to place/open in illustrator?

http://www.doozler.blogspot.com/

RE: Black outputs as dark gray?


"indesign shows the non edit pallet black as c69m68y64k74"

...what does this mean, a black you have created?

...these values are not really a black color at all and will look muddy compared to 100% black in illustrator...

andrew

RE: Black outputs as dark gray?


"why is it not exporting black"

...what is the original black?

...the word "black" is a very loose term in printing, as black can either be black ink only or a mixture of colors to make "black"...

...which raises the question of what is the original black values being used?

...according to your post above in indesign it is c69m68y64k74...

...this color isn't "black", but a muddy mix of colors...

andrew

RE: Black outputs as dark gray?


"if I paste a black object into idesign from illustrator colour it black in indesign"

...pasting a black object and coloring it black?

...which again rasies the question of what is the original black, to that of the new black you are applying?

andrew
 

RE: Black outputs as dark gray?


"I cut from indesign and pasted into illy seeing it now looks off black"

...it will be off black because you state the indesign black as being:

c69m68y64k74

...this color isn't "black", but a muddy mix of colors...

andrew

RE: Black outputs as dark gray?


"i made a shape in illy and pasted it into indesign coloured it black"

...what, this indesign color, c69m68y64k74?

...this color isn't "black", but a muddy mix of colors...

andrew

RE: Black outputs as dark gray?


"compared next to the same shape before it was copied"

..so the original black was what, 100% black only?

andrew

RE: Black outputs as dark gray?


"black in ps and illy is c75m68y67k90"

...so this color in illy has been created and applied to the object, pasted into indesign, colored this black:

c69m68y64k74

...so where is this black coming from in indesign and how are you determining these values in indesign?

andrew

RE: Black outputs as dark gray?


'when I go to check the black CMYK values in id they are different to illy and ps"

...which raises the question of how are you determining the indesign colors?

...you already state above that the indesign color is:

c69m68y64k74

...a muddy black...

...but the original black in illy (i assume) was c75m68y67k90...

...so it sounds to me like your changing the color manually in indesign which has less black...

...so it will appear different, but where is this indesign black coming from, one you have created?

andrew

RE: Black outputs as dark gray?

(OP)
Why use cut and paste and not place file?...if Im working on a shape for indesign in illustrator its quicker to cut and paste into ID than file-save, file-place,find file, if I need Illy to edit it further, cut-paste, not file-save, file-place,find file.
The black is chosen from the pallet in illustrator which I assumed is standard CMYK if I open a new illustrator project black  has the values C0 M0 Y0 K100,how ever this black looks more like dark grey and if I double click it and choose web colurs only I now see in the pallet a darker black? C75 M68 Y67 K90 Now I can see these two version of black look very different but if I cut and paste them to ID they look the same, but this is now a worry because I know these two colours are different in CMYK values although is web safe RGB a mix optimized for screen view?

In indesign when I open a new doccument and hovver my mouse over the black swatch in the swatches pallet it shows C0 M0 Y0 K100 in the pop out window, but selecting this swatch and double clicking its fill thumbnail its brings up C69 M68 Y64 K74, I have no way of changing these values,so again how do I know which is black, what is the CMYK value for printing pure or solid black?  

RE: Black outputs as dark gray?


>>> "The black is chosen from the pallet in illustrator which I assumed is standard CMYK if I open a new illustrator project black  has the values C0 M0 Y0 K100,how ever this black looks more like dark grey" <<<

...it will do because it is a screen simulation (defined in the preferences > appearance of black) of using 100% black ink only and helps determine a black ink only and a rich mix black on screen, which can be a problem if artwork is not produced correctly for print and not spotted early in a workflow, so there is a reason for that...

>>> "C75 M68 Y67 K90 Now I can see these two version of black look very different but if I cut and paste them to ID they look the same" <<<

defined in the preferences > appearance of black, check that matches the illustrator preferences (display accurately option)

>>> "but this is now a worry because I know these two colours are different in CMYK values" <<<

check the indesign swatches palette when an object is selected, it will tell you what color it is, so not really a worry, the rich black color you pasted from illy will be part of the swatches palette at the bottom

>>> "although is web safe RGB a mix optimized for screen view?" <<<

your RGB black has been converted to C75 M68 Y67 K90 so will look darker that 100% black ink only

>>>"In indesign when I open a new doccument and hovver my mouse over the black swatch in the swatches pallet it shows C0 M0 Y0 K100" <<<

yep

>>> "but selecting this swatch and double clicking its fill thumbnail its brings up C69 M68 Y64 K74" <<<

please post a screen shot of this to show, are you sure this is indesign you are referring to?
as in indesign the default [black] will always show 100% black only in the color picker dialog, not a mix black, which raises whether you are selecting the right black in the first place

>>> "what is the CMYK value for printing pure or solid black?" <<<

100% black only

andrew

RE: Black outputs as dark gray?



>>> "but selecting this swatch and double clicking its fill thumbnail its brings up C69 M68 Y64 K74" <<<

this also sounds to me like you are actually in illustrator. not indesign, using an illustrator RGB color mode document, selecting the default black, and choosing the color picker dialog, this is typical behavior...

...photoshop is different...

andrew

RE: Black outputs as dark gray?

(OP)
Thanks guys, cannot post a pic up on this forum but yes it is in indesign cs2,
...open new doccument, draw a square, fill with default black swatch from swatches pallet, double click fill thumbnail on left control/ main tool pallet, values are C69 M68 Y64 K74, cannot edit these settings in any way to C0 M0 Y0 K100, what is making ID force the CMYK settings on my standard pallet black, thanks again.    

RE: Black outputs as dark gray?


...long time since CS2 was on my machine, CS3 and CS4 certainly don't do this in the color picker, but in any case, the default "[Black]" in indesign is 100% black only, so why are you double clicking to reveal the color picker anyway?

...really though, to stop any further confusion i would stop where you are, take a step back, and start over again...

...do you want 100% black only?

...is so, stop mucking around with the default swatch in illustrator by converting it to web RGB because the black "appears" a dark grey...

...i don't really see what the problem is anymore or what it is your trying to achieve when it comes to the black you need...

andrew

RE: Black outputs as dark gray?



...if your pasting from indesign into illustrator and the color values are changing, you are using an RGB color mode illustrator document, not CMYK...

andrew

RE: Black outputs as dark gray?


...also...

"Why use cut and paste and not place file?...if Im working on a shape for indesign in illustrator its quicker to cut and paste into ID than file-save, file-place,find file, if I need Illy to edit it further, cut-paste, not file-save, file-place,find file."

...you will find that a problem in some cases and more trouble than is worth in some situations, in fact your experiencing difficulties right now...

...file > place native .ai is the recommended workflow, later editing of importing images "on the fly" is a simple case of (directly on an imported graphic):

alt/option + double click

...this opens the creator application for edits, (command/control + s to save) and the graphic updates "on the fly"...

andrew

RE: Black outputs as dark gray?


...you will find, in the long run, file > place, and edit "on the fly" quicker than copy and pasting all the time...

...it could quickly become a bad habit to be copying and pasting...

andrew

RE: Black outputs as dark gray?


...of course, speed is one thing, accuracy is another, so working in haste can screw you over, quick isn't always best...

andrew

RE: Black outputs as dark gray?


...copying and pasting is all well and good, i'm not completely discounting it, but it can open you up to more headaches if not careful...

andrew

RE: Black outputs as dark gray?

(OP)
Thanks again for advice people, I have had to send some artwork which had a background gradient fading black to green, black when selected in the gradient pallet is C75 M68 Y68 K90, if I switched this for black as C0 M0 Y0 K100 the gradient doesnt have a smooth blend black to green but a gray appears as black fades to green so I went back to the original C75 M68 Y68 K90 and will just have to hope it prints ok, cutting and pasting to PS looks ok so Im hoping it will print as I see it, because I have printed alot of artwork from PS and all is good Im assuming if this looks ok I can go with it. Going to upgrade versions of adobe soon anyway, thanks again, whenever I use pure black to print in CMYK values should be C0 M0 Y0 K100 right.
Thanks alot

RE: Black outputs as dark gray?


...the plot thickens...

...gradients/vignettes are different ball game completely to your original post, and many variables can render a gradient pleasant to look at or just damn awful...

...essentially, the less color contamination you have the better it will look, but length of gradient and the output device being used plays a part too...

...if you want to read up further on gradients follow this link:

http://kb2.adobe.com/cps/366/tn_3668.html#B

andrew

RE: Black outputs as dark gray?


...mixing spot colors also takes some forethought...

andrew

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