XP Pro to 98SE via a cross over cable

[CondorMan]

Hi Everyone

This should get the grey cells working as it relates to a problem with Windows 98SE linking to XP Pro via a cross over cable. I apologise for the length of the post, but I know it's important to give full details, so someone doesn't go down the wrong path when trying to resolve my problem.

The laptops are in the same workgroup (HOME) and have the names IBMLaptop (the 98SE) and VaioLaptop (the XP Pro)

The IP addresses are (98SE) - 192.168.1.10 and (XP Pro) - 192.168.1.40.

The Subnet Mask is 255.255.255.0 for both laptops.

The 98SE Laptop has a Belkin USB 10/100 Ethernet Adapter and the XP Pro has one built in.

I have set C:, D: and E: drives sharing on the 98SE laptop and disabled the firewall on the XP Pro laptop (there isn't a firewall on the older laptop).

I connect the laptops via a crossover cable and ping one from the other. These are the results:

Each laptop can ping itself by name or IP address.
The XP Pro laptop can ping the 98SE by IP address but not by name (it returns "Could not find host ...").
The 98SE laptop can't ping the XP Pro laptop by IP address or name (it returns "Unknown host ...").

I can't see the 98SE laptop when I examine Network Places on the XP Pro laptop and, whilst "HOME" is listed, it won't allow me to add anything.

The results are the same whether I have NetBEUI set up on the 98SE laptop or not (I read somewhere that this might cause a conflict).

Can anyone help me to sort this out? I use the XP Pro laptop to access the internet, either via a Router wirelessly or Ethernet cable, and just wonder if there are other settings that I may have to change to allow me to get one laptop to talk to the other.

Thank you for your time - my brain is hurting!

 

[G0AOZ]

Two points so far...

Network Neighbourhood often won't "see" the other machine unless they're BOTH running NETBEUI. You can install NETBEUI on XP, but you'll need the XP CD.

In the CD goto:-

VALUEADD\MSFT\NET\NETBEUI

Copy NBF.SYS to C:\WINDOWS\SYSTEM32\DRIVERS\ETC
Copy NETNBF.INF to C:\WINDOWS\INF (hidden sub-dir)

On the XP machine goto Control Panel, Network Connections, double click Local Area Connection, Properties, click Install. Highlight Protocol, click Add, select Microsoft, then double click NetBEUI Protocol. Save and reboot machine.

Secondly, I don't see you've shared any drive(s) on the XP machine. Maybe you have, but didn't mention it.

You also might need to add an account on the XP machine for the username you're logging on with on the WIN98 PC.

ROGER - G0AOZ.

 

[CondorMan]

Thank you Roger for the prompt response.

I tried the procedure with and without NetBEUI on the 98SE laptop but the result was the same. I'm not entirely sure what NetBEUI is, but I'll set it running on the XP laptop and see what happens.

I don't have any shared drives on the XP laptop as I don't want/need to access it from the 98SE laptop. In effect, I want to use the XP laptop to pull files from the 98SE laptop and then back them to a CD.

I don't have a username for the 98SE laptop. So far as I recall, that was all that was available when I started using it several years ago.

Another thing has struck me - if I insert the cross over cable into both laptops and then ping the XP laptop from itself (192.168.1.40), it responds normally but if I remove the cable, it times out! Why should this be? It responds normally (with the cable in or out) if I ping to 127.0.0.1.

I use the XP laptop connected to a router but I've been doing this work without it connected. Could the problem be related to DHCP settings?

 

[edfair]

Since you have defined the IP addresses DHCP isn't a factor.
How about adding file and print sharing to the XP and make one drive sharable. This for testing, you can pull it after the machines are talking.
Until you are able to ping the XP machine from the SE you won't be able to talk back and forth.

NETBUI is an older network transmission protocol. It helps because it identifies itself on the network. IP doesn't.

It may also be time to reload the network drivers on the XP. They can get corrupted and fail to talk.

Ed Fair
Give the wrong symptoms, get the wrong solutions.

 

[CondorMan]

Thank you Ed.

I've set the XP laptop to run NetBEUI and file sharing works fine now - I can see each of the 98SE drives (and contents) on the XP laptop. HOWEVER, I still can't ping freely from one to the other! Is it because I'm using NetBEUI rather than the familiar TCP/IP? It's obvious that they are communicating, but it would be nice to confirm that with DOS commands.

It seems bizarre that I have to revert to an older network transmission protocol to get this working. I would have thought that, as MS progresses, things would get easier, rather than fraught with stumbling blocks.

My next move is to backup the files from the 98SE laptop and then reinstall an OS - maybe 98SE but maybe I'll upgrade. I know that that hardware is unlikely to be able to support XP ... so I might even dip my toe into Linux!

 

[Rick998]

First, I apologise if any of the following is wrong... I'm working from memory (not my strong point <grin>) about Windows 98SE.

If I remember correctly, NetBEUI was the default network transport protocol for Windows 98/ME and you have to install TCP/IP manually if you want it.

An indicator of whether network components have been installed is the appearance of a 'Network Neighborhood' icon (shortcut) on the Windows 98SE desktop.

Windows XP uses TCP/IP as the default network protocol instead and you have to install NetBEUI manually if you want it.

For the purposes of home networking, including Internet access, TCP/IP is all you need... so don't worry about NetBEUI.

Even though network transport protocols may be installed in the Windows 98SE OS, to activate Windows networking on the Windows 98SE laptop you will need to 'log on' to the OS. You will also need 'File and Print sharing' to be enabled and to share files/folders on the Win 98 laptop (for obvious reasons if you are trying to reach files/folders on it).

If, as you say, you "started using it several years ago" then it's likely that the original registered user (and password, if used) may have been forgotten. Note that Windows 98SE only shows a 'log on' dialog if there is more than one registered user. If there is only one registered user (without password) then Windows 98SE does not show a 'logon' dialog.

If there is only one registered user then Windows 98SE will logon to the OS automatically if the primary network logon is set to 'Windows Networking' (instead of 'Client for Windows Networking').

You can check how many Windows 98SE 'registered users' there are by the following:

1) Click on the 'Start' button.
2) Click on the 'Find Files and Folders' option.
3) Enter '*.pwl' in the 'Find' dialog and search in the 'C:\Windows' folder and sub-folders.

You can force the display of the Windows logon prompt on the Windows 98SE laptop by deleting any PWL files that the search finds. When the Windows laptop is re-booted then it should show a logon dialog. I suggest you logon to the Windows 98SE laptop using 'Administrator' (as the user name) with a null (blank) password as this account already exists on the Windows XP laptop.

Any folders shared on the Windows 98SE laptop should then be easily accessible to the Windows XP laptop.

Hope this helps...

 

[Rick998]

CondorMan,

Glad to hear you've got it working now. I didn't notice until after I'd finished my own post. 'Ping' is a TCP/IP utility so if you are using NetBEUI then Ping responses between 2 devices will fail if TCP/IP is not configured properly.

NetBEUI is more forgiving than TCP/IP inasmuch that it doesn't need configuring... however NetBEUI cannot cross routers so is no longer used (except possibly within older, local networks).

127.0.0.1 is a TCP/IP loopback address that means 'this device'. I believe that pinging the loopback address just shows whether the TCP/IP stack is working or not.

If you are using a crossover cable and static IP addresses on both laptops then both laptops should be able to ping each other by IP address if the subnets (and gateways, if configured) are the same.

If both laptops are in the same workgroup on the same subnets and gateways, if configured) then both laptops should also be able to ping each other by host name (computername).

Hope this helps...

 

[CondorMan]

Thank you Rick. There's only one .pwl file and I did as you suggested to force it to create an Administrator .pwl file.

I've checked the static IP addresses and subnets and the latter are identical I've not configured the gateways.

When I click Network Neighbourhood on the 98SE desktop, it reveals the VaioLaptop but it won't let me connect as I don't have the password! I've tried all of the passwords that I've set on the VaioLaptop.

Despite checking everything, I still can't ping freely. I disabled NetBEUI and that made it impossible for me to see the IBM from the Vaio, so it's necessary and I re-enabled it.

This is so confusing. I know it's academic (as I can see the files on the IBMLaptop via the VaioLaptop that I need), but I'd like to know WHY it's not working completely. When I look at the Vaio My Network Places>Entire Network>Microsoft Windows Network, the tree structure then shows the Home workgroup. When I use the wizard to add \\IBMLaptop\C$, it isn't added under "Entire Network" or "Home", but it sits under My Network Places parallel with Entire Network. Logic says to me that "Entire Network" should be just that and, as both laptops are in the same (Home) workgroup, shouldn't they be displayed together beneath "Home"?

Thanks to you and others for the advice to get this working for me.

 

[rvnguy]

I use the XP laptop connected to a router

Since you have a router, you should be connecting these laptops through it and via a xover cable.

You can check your routers specs and maybe still use the xover cable as some will aout negociate this, other wise you need a normal cable.

98SE can talk over TCP/IP, so there should be no requirement for NETBEUI. Unless this is contained in "Client for Microsoft Networks"

I would use the XP network wizard to set this up and have a floppy at hand for when asked to generate a disk for the other stations. It will gen a disk that you can use to set the other(98SE) client to the required state.

Hope this Helps.

rvnguy
"I know everything..I just can't remember it all

 

[CondorMan]

Thanks for the tip. I had cosidered using the router to get the laptops talking to each other and realise that I'd have to do so if I want file sharing between more than 2 PCs. I used the cross over cable technique as an academic exercise because I've never done so before.

I'm intrigued that I might be able to use the cross over cable to link the laptop to the router. I was under the impression that it's only use was to link two PCs directly.

I'll take your advice about using the network wizard to create a floppy - yet something else that I've never done!

 

[Rick998]

Condorman,

I've gone back over the posts and it looks like TCP/IP is set up on both laptops (because they can ping themselves) but you may have a problem with bindings on the 98SE one.

In the 98SE's Network component list you should have a network adaptor, one or more network protocols (TCP/IP and NetBEUI), a network client ('Client for Microsoft Networks') and the 'File and printer sharing for Microsoft Networks' service.

For TCP/IP to work, it needs to be bound to the adaptor. To check, select the network adaptor in the Network component list then click on the 'Properties' button. On the 'Bindings' tab you should see TCP/IP listed and a checkmark against it.

TCP/IP also needs to be bound to the client and service so you also need to select the TCP/IP protocol itself in the Network component list then click on the 'Properties' button. On the 'Bindings' tab you should see both 'Client for Microsoft Networks' and 'File and printer sharing for Microsoft Networks' plus checkmarks against both.

If either of the checks above have missing bindings then TCP/IP between the two devices will not work, although you will still be able to connect via NetNEUI.

To resolve missing bindings it's usually best to remove and re-install the protocol so make sure you have the Windows 98SE CD handy then do the following:
1) Select TCP/IP in the Network component list and remove it.
2) Click OK and re-start.
3) Open the Network properties dialog and click on the 'Add' button.
4) Select 'Protocol' and click on the 'Add' button.
5) Select 'Microsoft' in the 'Manufacturers' list and 'TCP/IP' in the 'Protocol' list.
4) When you 'OK' the change you'll see numerous 'Version Conflict' dialogs as the TCP/IP files are re-loaded. I usually keep clicking on the 'Yes' button (to use the existing files) unless I suspect there may be damaged files on the PC... in which case I select 'No' to install a fresh version.

(Have a look in the root of C:... if you see any damaged files (i.e. files named file0001.chk, end in a .CHK extension and are either 16Kb or 32Kb) then it's a safe bet that you may have damaged system files. These files are usually caused by the system hanging and you having to just switch the PC off. When you switch the PC back on again, Scandisk does a check and re-names any damaged files it cannot fix to 'file000*.chk' ones.)

Note that you'll need to re-enter the static IP address and subnet settings and then re-boot for the changes to take effect.

You need the 'Client for Microsoft Networks' client but don't need the 'Microsoft Family Logon' client. Once you've logged on once as 'Administrator' with a null password then you can leave the 'Primary Network Logon' as 'Windows Logon'. Windows logon will see that there is only one Password List (.PWL file) and that there's no password set so won't pop up a logon dialog, unlike the 'Client for Microsoft Networking', but will still activate Windows Networking. To check, click on the 'Start' button and you should see 'Log Off Administrator' just above the 'Shut Down option.

Hope this info helps...

 

[edfair]

You could also try "sfc" to get an overall indication of corrupted stuff.

Ed Fair
Give the wrong symptoms, get the wrong solutions.

 

[CondorMan]

Thank you Rick for the detailed instructions. Thank you also to Ed for the suggestion about sfc.

I checked the adaptor binding and TCP/IP was bound to it. Despite this, I tried to remove TCP/IP and, when I rebooted, it had returned itself automatically with an arrow to the right, leading to the adaptor. This occurred whether the external network card was plugged into the USB port or not. I even added TCP/IP despite it being listed there already!

I checked the settings of the TCP/IP and it had returned to detect the IP address automatically, so I re-entered the static IP address and subnet.

The result was as before - I can see and manipulate the files on the 98SE laptop from the XP laptop but not vice versa and the ping results were as before.

I ran sfc and it generated a number of errors. It instructed me to use the 98 SE CD but, as the initial installation wasn't an original one (the disc that came with it restores the laptop to the state that it was when I first took iot out of the box), I set it to look at c:\windows\options\cabs. It couldn't restore the files from there.

I'm very grateful for the guidance that everyone has offered. I suspect that there is some file corruption which is causing the problem. At least I can access the 98 SE files from the XP laptop so I can strip them off to a CD or external hard drive and then reinstall an OS. I suspect that I won't be using the original disc that came with the laptop. I've gained knowledge and experience so am likely to use a "normal" OS installation. I would like to install XP but doubt that the aged hardware would support it.

This venture has given me more courage in networking and that was the intention.

Here's to my next project and again, many thanks to all who have to offered help.

 

[Freestone]

Have you tried disabling XPs built-in Firewall, if it is running? This may be blocking your ping from the 98 box to your XP box.

Old memories say that you have to create a user account on the XP box and give it access to the XP shared folder(s). On the 98 box, log in using Microsoft Netorking (not Windows logon) with the same user account and password you created on the XP box. This should allow 98 to access the XP box, but again, this is from long, dim memories....

 

[CondorMan]

I don't have Windows Firewall running. I have ZoneAlarm and I disabled it whilst I was experimenting.

I'll try the suggestion that you've given. Come to think of it, why would that cause problems pinging the XP laptop from the 98 SE one? If the problem was accessing files (because of an account name or permission), surely the laptop could still be reached by pinging?

Thank you

 

[Freestone]

Sorry for the confusion. I meant my answer to address two issues: the lack of a ping response (blocked by Firewall), and the lack of access to the XP box. I didn't mean for one to sound like a solution to the other.

Are you absolutely sure Zone Alarm isn't blocking the Ping (ICMP Echo) requests from the 98 box? Is there anything helpful here:

http://nic.phys.ethz.ch/readme/108

 

[edfair]

IP is an integral part of XP so it can't be removed. So don't lose any sleep over that.

I don't recall any issues seeing XP from SE, but since the build was an interim step to a lantastic network I wouldn't have paid attention anyway. I do recall that the default workgroup on XP was home and is workgroup with SE. So that was a very minor roadblock.
I still have the underlying F&PS for MS networking active with the SE and it sees the XPH with no problems. I'm using DHCP from a router to keep things separated. Also looked at the XP from another machine, a triple boot SE, and all 3 see the XP as they were built up. No special efforts required.

Ed Fair
Give the wrong symptoms, get the wrong solutions.

 

[rvnguy]

One Item that I overlooked...

Is the XP HD formatted as NTFS? If so this would not be available to 98SE...

But this does not answer the ping problem...

rvnguy
"I know everything..I just can't remember it all

 

[CondorMan]

Thank you for the additional comments. I've looked at them:

The article about incoming ICMP echo relates to SP1. I realised that when I couldn't find the advanced tab to which it refers. I checked Google and found that the setting is in Windows Firewall in XP Pro SP2. As I said, I had disabled that (along with ZoneAlarm) but when I checked the setting for incoming ICMP, it was checked in any case.

The XP laptop is formatted as NTFS, so that answers one potential problem, assuming I could have reached the XP laptop!

As I mentioned, I suspect that there's some file corruption so I'll revisit this when I've reinstalled an OS onto the present 98SE laptop. I'm inclined to reinstall this OS (temporarily), just to make sure I can get it to work. This is SO frustrating, but I'm resigned to not getting the free pings to work as they should.

 

[G0AOZ]

Rvnguy, you said "Is the XP HD formatted as NTFS? If so this would not be available to 98SE..."

With respect, I'd have to beg to differ on that one! I believe we're talking across the network here, but if the partitions were on the same drive or within the same machine, then yes 98SE could not see an NTFS partition.

I have a similar situation where I cannot ping a W98SE machine from an XP PC, and yet files can be shared/copied etc., in either direction. I'm putting it down to a rather quirky, odd network adaptor.

But that still doesn't solve CondorMan's ping issue unfortunately...

ROGER - G0AOZ.