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Which or That?
- Thread starter JediBMC
- Start date
CajunCenturion
Programmer
Technically speaking, the use of 'that' is restrictive whereas the use of 'which' is not.
What that means is that if the clause in question is necessary then you should use 'that'. In other words, 'that' is restricting, or further defining, the antecednt to something more specific.
We are going to the house that is painted yellow.
That is correct because we are restricting the word 'house' (the antecednet) to a specific house. The house that is painted yellow.
Bob's house, which is painted yellow, is on the left side of the street.
In this case, the clause 'which is painted yellow' does not restrict the antecedent in any way. Bob's house is Bob's house regardless of the paint color. Therefore, since no restriction is taking place, 'which' is the correct term.
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What that means is that if the clause in question is necessary then you should use 'that'. In other words, 'that' is restricting, or further defining, the antecednt to something more specific.
We are going to the house that is painted yellow.
That is correct because we are restricting the word 'house' (the antecednet) to a specific house. The house that is painted yellow.
Bob's house, which is painted yellow, is on the left side of the street.
In this case, the clause 'which is painted yellow' does not restrict the antecedent in any way. Bob's house is Bob's house regardless of the paint color. Therefore, since no restriction is taking place, 'which' is the correct term.
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CajunCenturion
Programmer
Sorry, meant to include the following.
In your example, 'which' would most likely be correct because the antecednet -- one factor -- is not being restricted, or further defined, by the necessity of change. The one factor is already known.
"This is one factor which may necessitate the change."
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In your example, 'which' would most likely be correct because the antecednet -- one factor -- is not being restricted, or further defined, by the necessity of change. The one factor is already known.
"This is one factor which may necessitate the change."
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CajunCenturion
Programmer
No.
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To complicate matters, "which" can be used to introduce either a restrictive clause or a non-restrictive clause, depending on the presence of a comma. CompareCajunCenturion said:
with
The "which" clause in the first sentence is non-restrictive, but the "which" clause in the second sentence is restrictive. The first sentence could not use "that" instead of "which," but the second sentence could.
IIRC, this usage is demonstrated in Strunk & White. (Hey, ipse dixit!)
mscallisto
Technical User
Does that mean that "This is the one factor that will necessitate the change" is correct?
CajunCenturion
Programmer
You are quite correct that there are exceptions that allow 'which' to be preferable to introduce retstrictive clauses.
The use of 'which' in your second sentence is preferable in the context of the comparative example.
However, if you were to take that sentence out of the comparative context, then not only could the second sentence use 'that', but is probably should use 'that' as it is introducing a restrictive clause.
Other cases where 'which' is preferable include possessive situations, personal situations, euphonic situations, and distance situations. Since the word 'that' does not have any possessive connotations, it is preferable to use 'which' for those phrases which are possessive.
When the antecent is referring to a person, then you may find 'which' to be preferable. In many of these cases, 'who' may also be usable. The person who, or the person with whom, or the person which, may be preferable to the rather impersonal 'the person that'.
Euphonic situations usually refer to those times when you want to say 'that that'. In those cases, if it makes sense, then it is usually better say 'that which'.
Finally, in the distance situation, 'which' may be preferrable if you have multiple restrictive clauses, or if the restrictive clause is separated from its antecedent. In the case of multiple restrictive clauses, the generally accepted practice is to use 'that' for the first clause, and 'which' for the subsequent clause(s). If the restrictive clause if separated from the antecent, perhaps by some parenthetical remarks, then you may find 'which' to be the better introductory word.
As harebrain said, it can get complicated, but if you stick to the basic rule -- that for restrictive and which for non-restrictive -- then you'll almost always be right.
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The use of 'which' in your second sentence is preferable in the context of the comparative example.
However, if you were to take that sentence out of the comparative context, then not only could the second sentence use 'that', but is probably should use 'that' as it is introducing a restrictive clause.
Other cases where 'which' is preferable include possessive situations, personal situations, euphonic situations, and distance situations. Since the word 'that' does not have any possessive connotations, it is preferable to use 'which' for those phrases which are possessive.
When the antecent is referring to a person, then you may find 'which' to be preferable. In many of these cases, 'who' may also be usable. The person who, or the person with whom, or the person which, may be preferable to the rather impersonal 'the person that'.
Euphonic situations usually refer to those times when you want to say 'that that'. In those cases, if it makes sense, then it is usually better say 'that which'.
Finally, in the distance situation, 'which' may be preferrable if you have multiple restrictive clauses, or if the restrictive clause is separated from its antecedent. In the case of multiple restrictive clauses, the generally accepted practice is to use 'that' for the first clause, and 'which' for the subsequent clause(s). If the restrictive clause if separated from the antecent, perhaps by some parenthetical remarks, then you may find 'which' to be the better introductory word.
As harebrain said, it can get complicated, but if you stick to the basic rule -- that for restrictive and which for non-restrictive -- then you'll almost always be right.
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CajunCenturion
Programmer
mscallisto - Ask yourself if the phrase further refines its antecedent.
"This is the one factor that will necessitate the change"
and from donbott
"This is one factor that will necessitate the change"
In either case, does "will necessitate the change" have any impact on which factor you are discussing? In both cases, the sentence begins with the pronoun 'this' which presumably is referring a factor previously identified.
In my opinion, the factor in question is not being further identified by the change phrase; the (one) factor is identified by the pronoun 'this'. Therefore the change phrase is non-restrictive which means that 'which' is the correct choice.
This is the one factor which will necessitate the change.
This is one factor which will necessitate the change.
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"This is the one factor that will necessitate the change"
and from donbott
"This is one factor that will necessitate the change"
In either case, does "will necessitate the change" have any impact on which factor you are discussing? In both cases, the sentence begins with the pronoun 'this' which presumably is referring a factor previously identified.
In my opinion, the factor in question is not being further identified by the change phrase; the (one) factor is identified by the pronoun 'this'. Therefore the change phrase is non-restrictive which means that 'which' is the correct choice.
This is the one factor which will necessitate the change.
This is one factor which will necessitate the change.
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I think you're misled here: your decision is based on the logic of the situation rather than the grammar of the sentence. If you stick to the sentence, "that" is the appropriately used word.CajunCenturion said:
Other than that, clarity and brevity demand that the sentence be stripped of superfluous words and tortured grammar:
This factor necessitates the change.
Short and sweet... and the type of writing that used to get me in all manner of trouble with higher-ups. But then I was a government contractor.
I always thought it was my job to make a point as quickly and clearly as possible. Others believed it was my job to "soften the blow." We compromised: I wrote, they rewrote, then I edited, then when everyone was tired of the whole thing, we called it quits and went with what was left standing.
CajunCenturion
Programmer
I disagree harebrain.
This is one factor which will necessitate the change. The one factor is already fully identified within the antecedent of the phrase, therefore the phrase is non-restrictive, and you should use 'which'.
The factor that will necessitate the change is factor #6. The factor that necessitates the change is defined by the phrase, there the phrase is restrictive, and you should use 'that'.
I agree that you can and should word the sentence short and sweet as you have done, but doing so does not help answer the question.
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This is one factor which will necessitate the change. The one factor is already fully identified within the antecedent of the phrase, therefore the phrase is non-restrictive, and you should use 'which'.
The factor that will necessitate the change is factor #6. The factor that necessitates the change is defined by the phrase, there the phrase is restrictive, and you should use 'that'.
I agree that you can and should word the sentence short and sweet as you have done, but doing so does not help answer the question.
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- Thread starter
- #12
Wording things short and sweet is not always the most appropriate way of doing things. When I was a consultant, there was a great emphasis on verbosity.
This is something of a game that goes along with consulting. Basically the idea is that if a client pays $100,000 for an assessment, the expect a 500 page document in return. Hand them a smaller document and, no matter how accurate it is, they will feel that they have not gotten their money's worth.
-Brian-
I'm not an actor, but I play one on TV.
This is something of a game that goes along with consulting. Basically the idea is that if a client pays $100,000 for an assessment, the expect a 500 page document in return. Hand them a smaller document and, no matter how accurate it is, they will feel that they have not gotten their money's worth.
-Brian-
I'm not an actor, but I play one on TV.
CajunCenturion
Programmer
JediBMC - I can fully appreciate the need for verbosity.
Has the discussion provided you any help concerning the use of which and that?
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Has the discussion provided you any help concerning the use of which and that?
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Which is what I was trying to say: hand-in a long-winded, overly verbose document that is impenetrable to the ordinary mortal rather than a concise document that's easy to understand. Why? The customer doesn't feel he got his money's worth unless the analysis (or whatever) is hard to understand.
CC, your argument is spurious. The antecedent in the sentence (This is one factor which will necessitate the change.) is the copulating phrase, "This is one factor." Where there's a copula, you can replace the entire phrase with either of its constituents. Grammatically both ends of the copula are equivalent; neither qualifies the other. (Logically, perhaps; not grammatically.) So you can equivalently state,
Let's try a similar sentence:
CC, your argument is spurious. The antecedent in the sentence (This is one factor which will necessitate the change.) is the copulating phrase, "This is one factor." Where there's a copula, you can replace the entire phrase with either of its constituents. Grammatically both ends of the copula are equivalent; neither qualifies the other. (Logically, perhaps; not grammatically.) So you can equivalently state,
or
You need a restrictive phrase. You can't combine the parts of a copula with logic to affect a change in the grammar. And "This is one factor" is a grammatical unit: you can't slice it and dice it to make something else of it, such as an inference of identification.
Let's try a similar sentence:
Replace "that" with "which" and the sentence tumbles off the tongue like a rock tumbles upstairs.
CajunCenturion
Programmer
Thank you harebrain, you've made my point.
"This is one animal which requires special care." is grammatically correct, because again, it is identical in stucture to the previous statement, and does not contain a restrictive clause. "Which requires special care" is not necessary for you to know which animal is being discussed. For a clause to be restrictive, it must provide clarification, or further restrict the definition of its antecedent. How can you further restrict one animal?
"The animal that has a broken leg requires special care." is grammatically correct because the phrase "that has a broken leg" is restrictive. Without that phrase, you don't know which animal requires special care. "That has a broken leg" has restricted the scope of "The animal" to a specific animal, and since that clause is restrictive, you use the term 'that'.
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Since neither qualifies the other, the phrase is by definition non-restrictive, therefore which is the correct term use. You should never use 'that' with non-restrictive phrases.harebrain said:
Yes, exactly. You need a restrictive phrase to use 'that'.harebrain said:
"This is one animal which requires special care." is grammatically correct, because again, it is identical in stucture to the previous statement, and does not contain a restrictive clause. "Which requires special care" is not necessary for you to know which animal is being discussed. For a clause to be restrictive, it must provide clarification, or further restrict the definition of its antecedent. How can you further restrict one animal?
"The animal that has a broken leg requires special care." is grammatically correct because the phrase "that has a broken leg" is restrictive. Without that phrase, you don't know which animal requires special care. "That has a broken leg" has restricted the scope of "The animal" to a specific animal, and since that clause is restrictive, you use the term 'that'.
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CajunCenturion
Programmer
We were posting at the same time.
The structure is
This is {one factor} {that will necessitate the change}.
The phrase is "that will necessitate the change". The antecednet is "one factor". It is the "one factor" that the phrase "that will necessitate change" is referring to. Is the phrase restrictive? No, because "one factor" is fully defined. You don't need the phrase to know which factor is in play.
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The structure is
This is {one factor} {that will necessitate the change}.
The phrase is "that will necessitate the change". The antecednet is "one factor". It is the "one factor" that the phrase "that will necessitate change" is referring to. Is the phrase restrictive? No, because "one factor" is fully defined. You don't need the phrase to know which factor is in play.
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Our previous two posts are out of order. For those who are confused, I do not make Cajun's point: I foolishly followed him down a bad road, but I returned to correct myself.
The clause is restrictive with respect to its antecedent, which is "one factor." CC,you're wrapped around the axle because you don't recognize what the function of "is" is.
The clause is restrictive with respect to its antecedent, which is "one factor." CC,you're wrapped around the axle because you don't recognize what the function of "is" is.
Your logic is as flawed as your grammar. "This" is fully defined by "one factor that will necessitate the change." "One factor" itself is qualified by the restrictive clause and thus does not alone identify "this."
Chop off the restrictive clause and you're left with, "This is one factor." What factor? Without its restrictive clause, it could be any factor. (Unless, of course, you're inferring knowledge from somewhere else. But that doesn't approach the problem from the standpoint of grammar! On top of that, it makes your logic circular.)
You can't get away from breaking the sentence at the copula first.
Chop off the restrictive clause and you're left with, "This is one factor." What factor? Without its restrictive clause, it could be any factor. (Unless, of course, you're inferring knowledge from somewhere else. But that doesn't approach the problem from the standpoint of grammar! On top of that, it makes your logic circular.)
You can't get away from breaking the sentence at the copula first.
CajunCenturion
Programmer
We will just have to agree to disagree.
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