TABLES!!!!

[jocoutts]

This is probably my biggest problem with Dreamweaver and I was wondering if perhaps there was a tip to avoid this.
Once I have gone to all the trouble of making my page look exactly the way I want it using a table as a grid, it always looks completely different when viewed through a browser. I don't understand why.
Tables are essential in making visually complicated websites, but why do they never seem to work???? Has anyone got any advice about this.
I would appreciate any help.
Thank you
Jo

 

[CTekMedia]

I rarely use tables - I leave most of my pages in layers and I use overlapping (not nested) layers. I do have to check in 4.x, 5.x and 6.x as the overlapping layers do not always display consistently - but they are close. I only design for IE and NN. I also check in 800x600 and 1024x768. If I want a site to have "floating" pages I'll use tables but I design in layers and then use the DW conversion utility. I use tables in forms frequently.

Table tags have been poorly specified and unevenly implemented. Layers don't work too hot either lol.

I'm no table expert and I would like to read some additional responses but:
don't use absolute table size values (pixels)
Set width to 100%
Set height to 100% if you don't care about NN users
Set border, cellspace, and cellpadding to whatever figure you want regardless of what the default is.

Any other suggestions folks?
Peace

http://www.bluetone.biz

BT

 

[EugenePaliev]

Hi jocoutts!

I may not call myself a table-design expert but I've worked a lot with it and hope to help you someway

Firstly, would you please post either a link to your site or a code - this is the only way to find the problem out...

Secondly, about the table design itself. W3C doesn't reccommend to use tables for layout - use CSS instead. Tables should be used only for data presentation. It's the reccommnedation. In real life I try to use CSS as much as possible but now I still use tables for page layout. Tables give the opportunity to design such pages that look exactly the same in all browsers!

About layers. I think that CSS would be much better thing for page layout design than layers. And for present time both - layers and CSS - are not correct supported by most browsers that's why I think tables is the best thing for page layout. I personnaly have never seen serious sites (such as Amazon, B&N, CNN, etc.) designed with layers... Good Luck!

 

[CTekMedia]

I agree with much of what Eugene says - I'll be shifting to CSS in another 6 months to a year when a bigger percentage of the population has upgraded browsers - although that is pretty high now.

Big sites, that cannot afford to lose any viewers, are written in tables or autodetect and use browser specific pages. All to often the sites strictly in tables are flat, simple, and ugly. Unless you keep the graphics simple or use slices they take too long to present. I have seen plenty of sites with sliced graphics writtin in tables that have display problems. If you can afford to alienate 5% of your viewers (probably less) layers allow the creation of creative and light sites.

Nothing is correctly and uniformly supported right now, CSS, layers, or tables. As I said, I usually design only for IE and NN 4.x and above and layers work great - in that limited environment. I usually don't consider other browsers depending on a clients needs. If a site is critical I will write something in tables that can even be viewed in web TV (gag)with a mirror site in layers and autodetect.

It all depends on where you want to draw the line between availability, beauty, and a reasonable price tag. Peace

http://www.bluetone.biz

BT

 

[EugenePaliev]

bluetone,
why do you think that layers offer something extra that makes sites beauty by itself?..

I agree that most sites on the Web is ugly or so. I agree that some sites with table-layout have problems. But if you use tables correctly you'll get much better compatibility than with layers or CSS. If you use tables correctly you'll get 99,9% of absolute compatibility!

Again, it's only an oppinion, nothing more Good Luck!

 

[CTekMedia]

No inherent difference - just a lot quicker. So I can spend the clients time on creative rather than layout.

I can't agree with your 99.9%. There are several big name sites (pcmall.com comes to mind, I think amazon was another) that as of a month ago were not displaying NN 6.x correctly!

I agree with you that if compatability is the main goal then tables are the best route right now.

Please let us know what techniques you use to get such good results with tables. I'm not particularly good with them and haven't had results that are worth the hassle of designing with no overlap. I'm not trying to challenge you with this question - I would find the information very useful.

Peace

http://www.bluetone.biz

BT

 

[jocoutts]

Thank you all for your feedback.
I didn't realize that I wasn't the only one that didn't like tables. I thought I was just doing something wrong.
I started again, in the end, and did each cell individually and then checking it through a browser after creating each one. Finally, it looked the way I liked it, but I find tables are a real hassle.
The reason I've always used tables, is I once made a site out of layers and loads of text and images overlapped on certain PC's or if the viewer made the window smaller.
Tables are a pain, but once you have managed to get it to look right at least they are accessible. However, it can be a lot of time wasting.