Of what value is "prescriptive grammar"?

[SantaMufasa]

Another thread (thread1256-1440676), touched briefly upon the notion of "prescriptive grammarians"...those who advocate adherence to long-standing accepted rules of linguistic syntax and usage.

What, if any, is the value of "prescriptive grammarians"? Do we need people who advocate adherence to rules of English?

Mufasa
(aka Dave of Sandy, Utah, USA)
[I provide low-cost, remote Database Administration services: www.dasages.com]

 

[RCorrigan]

Santa

"prescriptive grammar"

Does that mean I have to go to the doctor before I post ???



<Do I need A Signature or will an X do?>

 

[SantaMufasa]

<HeHeHe> Yes, to either a Psychiatrist or a Proctologist:

"Heads and Tails"
"Nuts and Butts"
"Odds and Ends"

You choose.

Mufasa
(aka Dave of Sandy, Utah, USA)
[I provide low-cost, remote Database Administration services: www.dasages.com]

 

[vanka25]

While I understand that languages evolve over time, I think that "prescriptive grammarians" are needed. The whole point of language is to communicate with those around you; without clear, concise rules of grammar communication is hard if not impossible. I think many have experienced the frustration that inevitably occurs when one party in a conversation has a poor grasp of the language being used.

A common occurrence for me is hearing a Russian-speaking person try to converse in English, they will usually use English words but retain Russian grammar and sentence structure. It is not my intention to demean them (English is my second language as well), but these type of conversations are extremely hard to follow. Or imagine reading a paper or book with incorrect grammar; how long will you continue to suffer through it?

My opinion is that since incorrect grammar is a barrier to productive communication, we will always need "prescriptive grammarians". Besides, if I was forced/required to learn the correct grammar in English, so should everyone else - especially native speakers.

 

[SantaMufasa]

By definition, or by necessity, are "prescriptive grammarians" elitist?

Mufasa
(aka Dave of Sandy, Utah, USA)
[I provide low-cost, remote Database Administration services: www.dasages.com]

 

[sleipnir214]

They can be. Wikipedia has what seems to be a good article on linguistic prescription (

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linguistic_prescription).

The article lists several problems with prescription, the first being that prescription tends to favor the language of one region or social class over another and the last being "inappropriate dogmatism".




Want to ask the best questions? Read Eric S. Raymond's essay "How To Ask Questions The Smart Way". TANSTAAFL!

 

[risby]

If you want arguments against prescription see Pinker and Chomski (I expect you can find pro-articles by yourself ;-)

Here are some other online articles to consider ...

Grammar should be descriptive, not prescriptive.

http://www.phon.ucl.ac.uk/home/dick/kal/what.htm

the kind of thing the mavens call correctness is an irrelevant arena of pedantic hobbyism, of no interest to the scientific study of language.

http://www.cinestatic.com/trans-mat/McClure/chapter7.htm

In fact, L2 speakers can be as fanatically and irrationally prescriptive as retired British colonels, American schoolmarms and other traditional stereotypes of linguistic bigotry, though with slightly more excuse.

http://www.philseflsupport.com/grammar_issues.htm

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I phoned the local ramblers club today, and this bloke just went on and on.

 

[2ffat]

Do we need people who advocate adherence to rules of English?

All my English teachers would say , "YES!" It gives them a job. ;-)


James P. Cottingham
-----------------------------------------
^{I'm number 1,229!
I'm number 1,229!}

 

[CajunCenturion]

The winners should be us".

I disagree. The US shouldn't win everything.

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[CajunCenturion]

One of the biggest advantages of prescriptive grammars, as vanka25 state above, is that such a prescription seeks and establishes a standard that leads to more efficient and effective communications. Adherence to the standard reduces ambiguity and misunderstanding especially when spanning local or regional dialects.

Another advantage of prescriptive grammar is that one cannot study the evolution of language without having a baseline. It is the prescriptive grammar that establishes that baseline since linguistic evolution is charted by noting the differences between any descriptive grammars and their corresponding prescriptive grammars.

I would also offer that adherence to the prescriptive grammar is far more important in the written word than in the spoken word, or in formal speech as opposed to informal speech.

The prescriptive grammar is also critical in the accurate understanding of historical documents. To understand what is meant based on what is written, one must understand the context and that most definitely includes the prescriptive grammars of that time of writing. In that same vein, what is written and recorded today will be viewed by the historians of tomorrow, not by the descriptive grammars of their day, but by the prescriptive grammars of our day.

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[risby]

adherence to the prescriptive grammar

I find your use of the term "prescriptive grammar" a bit odd.

It is as though you believe there is a book somewhere that defines the English language. This isn't the case.

A prescriptive grammarian says "you must construct this type of sentence like so" but you will certainly find a roomful of prescriptive grammarians have plenty to argue about ... I mean, about which to argue.

One certainly can study the way language changes temporally and geographically without some golden standard. That's precisely what modern linguists do. They can "describe" the way Geordie differs from Essex dialects and from New York dialects without declaring any of them "the right way to speak or write".

==========================================

I phoned the local ramblers club today, and this bloke just went on and on.

 

[traingamer]

By definition, or by necessity, are "prescriptive grammarians" elitist?

You say that like it's a bad thing.

Maybe we should passively work to bring about a future like the one presented in Idiocracy?

Greg
"Personally, I am always ready to learn, although I do not always like being taught." - Winston Churchill

 

[CajunCenturion]

It is as though you believe there is a book somewhere that defines the English language. This isn't the case.

I'm amazed at the assumptions you make from what you read into what people actually say. No, there isn't a book somewhere that defines the English language, but there are hundreds, if not thousands of books which describe the extremely complex English grammar and variations. There are differences, and whereas I did say, "adherence to the prescriptive grammar", I should've said, "adherence to a prescriptive grammar".

but you will certainly find a roomful of prescriptive grammarians have plenty to argue about

Of course you will; that goes without saying. While they will debate the merits and demerits of some of the details of the standard, they all agree on the value of having a set of standards.

I didn't say 'golden' standard, I said 'baseline' standard.

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[kjv1611]

What, if any, is the value of "prescriptive grammarians"? Do we need people who advocate adherence to rules of English?

The value is immeasurable. Can the value of at least some communication standards be measured?

By definition, or by necessity, are "prescriptive grammarians" elitist?

No. Certainly some are, but it is not that the person in that role will undoubtedly be so.



--

"If to err is human, then I must be some kind of human!" -Me

 

[Michael52x]

I've never spoken "native", but I go native a lot!
People usually can speak correctly, but simply do not.
It is more an American thing. With all the slang, jargon, and abreviated messaging, it is a wonder we still can speak.
If any part of this is incorrect, by all means edit!
{ I don't mean tear me apart, just the grades, ma'm.}

"Impatience will reward you with dissatisfaction" RMS Cosmics'97