How can I connect two wireless subnets each using WRT45G routers? 7

[sawback]

I've read a few other related threads but nothing I've tried so far seems to work.

Here's my intended set-up:

1. I have a main router, a WRT45G LinkSys router (192.168.1.1), connecting to the internet and to a small network (192.168.1.). DHCP is enabled, though it doesn't have to be as it's a small network.
2. I have another router, another WRT45G Linksys router (192.168.2.1), that will act as a router for a separate small subnet (192.168.2.). Ditto re: DHCP.

Goal: I want subnet 192.168.2. to have access to the other subnet 192.168.1. (& vice versa) and to the Internet via router 192.168.1.1.

Can anyone recommend a good (preferably step-by-step) solution?

Regards,
Tom Wolfe

 

[bcastner]

If you want to preserve the subnets, you will have to use LMHOSTS files on the clients for both subnets, and use static IPs.

It is strongly recomended that you just use a single subnet for Windows-based networking, then:

. disable DHCP on the second router
. give the second router a static IP in the non-DHCP scope of the first router; likely 192.168.1.2 is non-conflicting, or choose any value from 192.168.1.2 -- 192.168.1.99, or 192.168.1.150 -- 192.168.1.254
. connect the two routers from an uplink port on one to a regular, not WAN, port.

Done.

 

[sawback]

Thanks for the suggestion, bcastner (from reading through some of the threads I thought you might be the one to respond!)

I didn't describe the scenario sufficiently: The two routers are in different buildings, and I would like to use the secondary router as a kind of wireless network client to the primary router (which acts as an access point for the secondary router); I hope that makes sense. Is this possible with the hardware I mentioned (Linksys WRT45G routers)?

I don't actually need to have the two subnets, as you suggest. I just want the two groups of computers networked and have the group of computers on the secondary router access to the internet.

Regards,
Tom Wolfe

 

[bcastner]

I would use third-party firmware for the WRT54G from Sveasoft: (Read more here. The best firmware requires a $20 annual subscription):

http://www.sveasoft.com/modules/phpBB2/index.php?sid=499a3fc08e8b91ab74887d5dfc139901

The sveasoft WRT54G firmware would allow you two choices:

. A true client mode, where the second WRT54G could be used as a wireless bridge to the first router. You would need a inexpensive switch at the second site (for wired clients), or an AP or third WRT54G (if wireless at site #2);

. Sveasoft allows for true WDS (Wireless Distributed Services), so that only your existing equipment would be needed. There is a throughput hit on the second WRT54G in this role, as it is acting as both AP and repeater, but it likely is sufficient.

The other advantages of using third-party firmware:

. Output power can be increased from 18mw (the default) to 84mw;
. Antenna diversity can be modified from the defaults, which is usefull if you need to attach a larger or sector antenna to the device to get a good bridging signal between the buildings and the two devices. With the Sveasoft firmware you can select the status (transmit, receive) of each antenna individually. So you could have a small sector antenna at site 1, focused on a small sector antenna at site 2, and the second antenna on each site can be set to diversity mode for the local LAN.

Note: I have no financial interest in Sveasoft, I just use the stuff.

Bill Castner

 

[dearingkr]

Third-party firmware?
Didn't know it was possible, very interesting.

MCSE CCNA CCDA

 

[bcastner]

dearingkr,

When Linksys/Cisco released the underlying unix kernels used, the field opened up.

This has made the WRT54G/GS and now the WAP54G/GS the most adaptible routers and APs on the market.

Some notable sites for further information:

. The BroadBandReports Linksys site, a must:

http://www.broadbandreports.com/forum/equip,16

. Seattle Wireless, a must:

http://seattlewireless.net/?LinksysWrt54g#head-91dd746949e966913289a582d93a153b26b9a987

. The Sveasoft site mentioned above

. Wi-fi Box:

http://wrt54g.sonycrx2xx.org/

For the WAP54G there are some new firmware alternatives, see the BroadBandReports site for further links. Sveasoft has a WAP54G/GS firmware alternative as well.

 

[sawback]

Very interesting indeed. I'll let you know how things turn out.

Regards,
Tom Wolfe

 

[bcastner]

I should note a pre-answer to the most likely question: "I cannot use hacked firmware in a commercial/business site."

Well, you pre-anticipated the problem. Linksys/Cisco itself is using as some core elements of the firmware from Open Source projects and modules. Both Sveasoft and Wi-Fi Box have sites on Open Forge. The source code, except for the subscriber only versions, of Sveasoft is available from Open Forge, as is all of Wi-Fix Box.

The Open Source stuff was sufficient for the original Linksys/Cisco developers. It is in the main, with testing, sufficient for me to use in my commercial sites.

To me it has made the WRT54xx/G/GS series the most adaptable wireless router on the market today. I buy them in quantity for around US $70. I now buy the /GS series for around US $100, and so can you.

You can always revert the firmware backwards if it does not work as you planned. But what the Open Source, and Sveasoft for a modest fee, have done with the Broadcom family of chips is incredible.

And by this time next year there will be "two-radio" chip implementations for the same price that are even more incredible for WDS, Repeater and other uses of new devices.

WDS has always been in the standards for 802.11x, and were are at an evolutionary/revolutionary phase in which it not only can work, but with a two-radio chipset work well. Five years from now a wired connection will be a relic, I believe, but a heckuva lot has to be done during those years. I can assure you that a ton of work is being done encryption, authentication, and AP density now, that in the 2006 timeframe will make this is very safe prediction.

My opinion,
Bill Castner

 

[dearingkr]

Top-notch information from bcastner, as always.
Thanks

MCSE CCNA CCDA

 

[bcastner]

To wet the interest of others willing to explore what is now possible with the WRT54xx series, note the following are usually regular features of alternative firmware versions:

. True antenna assignments
. Output transmit power changes from the default of 18mw to variable settings up to 84mw (and yes, it is legal);
. Static DHCP - you continue to use DHCP, but assign by MAC address for certain clients that they obtain the same address always. Great for port forwarding requirements
. Local DNS server. Most of the firmware changes allow you to implement a local DNS server. Great for workgroups where Netbios has name resolution issues.
. VPN - Use the WRT54G as a VPN endpoint. Also, a ton of fixes to PPtP and IPSEC issues with existing firmware.
. Port Forwarding and UPnP: you have with third-party firmware a much larger range of forwarding options, including "fixed" UPnP and H.232, and larger tables. If you are familiar with Linux, the whole IPTable function is exposed.
. Telnet to the router
. A Busybox Linux shell

Play, learn, enjoy. In certain firmwares you can use some/all of these features for routers based on the Broadcom chipset; Buffalo is supported by some, and likely others.

 

[dearingkr]

That's it, now you've done it.

Now I have to go and buy one tomorrow so I can play.

Actually, I have a couple of wireless site surveys to do in the next 2 weeks. My normal business-class solution is Cisco, 3Com, or Nortel products dependig on customer requirements. This may give me another option.

MCSE CCNA CCDA

 

[bcastner]

Dearinkgkr,

And I did not mention again true WDS.

Play, test, read.

For the residential user, the Wi-Fi Box offerings are very good. At commercial sites I use Seavsoft.

At both sites they have done the job.

Play, test, read my links above.

Best to you sir,
Bill Castner

 

[bcastner]

One feature I forgot to include is the Sveasoft implementation of bandwith shaping.

If you intend to use VoIP, or have a rotten 13-year old who loves P2P applications such as Kazaa or eDonkey, then being able to shape the bandwidth for these applications is a blessing.

 

[sawback]

OK, I know it's been a few weeks, but here is my experience with the Sveasoft stuff.

1. Everything Bill says about Sveasoft's firmware seems to be true. After a couple of days of fiddling and orienting my brain to a new type of networking I have true WDS up and going with two WRT54Gs. When all is said and done, it's a very simple process, but my steep learning curve stood in the way of what would have otherwise been a 2-minute change in settings.

2. Unfortunately Sveasoft's documentation is currently a little dated and general and assumes a pre-existing basic understanding of WDS (do a Google search and that should fill in the gaps...). From the Sveasoft site mentioned by Bill above, do a Forum search, simply for the keyword "WDS" and you should find some good stuff.

3. You really should purchase the USD$20 membership in order to download the latest and greatest pre-release and get support. The nomenclature of the releases is a little strange, but you're looking for the most recent one, currently "pre-3.0" or ".10" or something like that--available under the Private download link if you are a member. Caveat non-emptor if you choose not to buy in. The older releases require you to do some command-line stuff every time you power-cycle the units.

4. My version of how to set up WDS with the Linksys WRT54G version 2 with Sveasoft's latest beta/pre-release firmware upgrade (with main as the router connected to the internet, and repeater as a repeater) is as follows:

a) If your computer is prone to connecting automatically to wireless networks, disable this feature on the computer you'll be working on for now so that you don't confuse yourself...

b) Configure your computer so that it has two static IP Addresses on your NIC/Ethernet card. I used the following: 192.168.1.5/255.255.255.0 and 192.168.2.5/255.255.255.0 -- I do this so that it's easy to work on both routers at the same time once you've changed repeater's IP address (if necessary).

c) Put both routers on your desk and power them up. Run a cable from one of the Ethernet ports (not the Internet port) on main to your computer's Ehternet card. If they have not been reset, then do so by holding the reset button in for an incredibly long time (until all the LEDs flash simultaneously a couple of times).

d) Go to a web browser and log onto the main WRT54G by entering 1923.168.1.1 in the address bar and using the password admin (any username seems to work...)

e) Make sure of the following:
- Leave DHCP on,
- rename this router as main,
- leave the default IP as 192.168.1.1/255.255.255.0
- leave the gateway as 0.0.0.0
- Go to Security and disable Firewall, uncheck "Block Anonymous Requests"
- go to the Status->Wireless dialogue and take note of the MAC Address (i.e. write in on a slip of paper or cut and paste it into a handy file). This is known as the "Wireless" MAC address of the WRT54G and is different from the MAC address that is found on the box itself!! Take heed!!

f) Now unplug the cable from the main router and plug it into an Ethernet port on the repeater router.

g) Again, log on to repeater as d) above.

g) Make sure of the following:
- Change repeater's IP Address to a different subnet, e.g. use 192.168.2.1/255.255.255.0
- leave the gateway as 0.0.0.0
- rename this router as "repeater"
- turn DHCP OFF...
- Go to Security and disable Firewall, uncheck "Block Anonymous Requests"
- go to the Status->Wireless dialogue and take note of the MAC Address as in e) above

h) Now for the fun stuff. Go to the Wireless->WDS dialogue. On the first pull-down box that says "Disable" change that to LAN. Now enter the Wireless MAC Address you got from the main router here (the first one you jotted down on that slip of paper). Don't get it wrong. Remember to hit "Save Settings"

(for that matter, always remember to hit "Save Settings" throughout this process or else... your settings won't be saved!)

i) Now, unplug repeater, plug in main and log on (192.168.1.1, from your browser). Go to the Wireless->WDS dialogue and... Select LAN from the first pull-down and enter in the Wireless MAC Address you got from the repeater router as you did in h). Hit "Save ..."

This should do it. You can now use repeater as a repeater and main as the main router/gateway plugged into the Internet or WAN.

Things you can change:
- You can switch to B-only
- You can switch to G-only
- You can enable WEP
- You can disable SSID broadcasting

Things you might be able to change:
- You might be able to enable the firewall security. Try it and see--it works for me either way, but some posts hinted at troubles. You might want to try it disabled first and then enable it to see if it works later.

Things you definitely cannot change:
- You cannot use Afterburner

Things you really should change:
- You should remember to change your password

Things you may have to change:
- I connect to the Internet here through a gateway. This might make a

Things you should keep in mind:
- I am definitely not an expert in this. Join the Sveasoft Forum and post your questions there if you have any major issue.
- The MAC Address you use in the WDS dialogue MUST be the "MAC Address: XX:XX:XX:XX:XX:XX" that you see on the first line of the Status->Wireless dialogue!!!

Thanks again Bill for turning me on to Sveasoft.

If there are any errors or additions to what I've written above then please let me know!

Regards,
Tom Wolfe
Canmore, AB

PS: For those of you wondering how to flash the firmware... this is a simple process: a) Download and save the blah.pre-x.blah.bin file from Sveasoft's site. b) Then log on to the router, c) go to Administration->Firmware Upgrade, d) browse for the firmware upgrade file you just downloaded, e) then click "Upgrade". You should do this with a hard connection to your router, not wirelessly, as apparently you can break your box. That said, I've done it without a hitch wirelessly, and I've had my wired connection break--neither caused me any grief.

 

[sawback]

Oh, and a final note. Yes, Sveasoft's firmware does allow a power increase, apparently, but the idea of 13 mW to 84 mW might conjure up visions of sharing your internet connection with your buddy across town... in fact I would say that the practical increase in terms of distance is perhaps 50% from my experience. Still better than nothing.

Regarding resources, relatively speaking BroadBandReports Linksys and Seattle Wireless pale in comparison with Sveasoft.

Regards,
Tom Wolfe

 

[bcastner]

sawbuck,

A niceley done guide.

Best,
Bill Castner

 

[jwbarrington]

Sawback,

I've read your excellent step-by-step instructions on configuring two Linksys routers as repeaters, and I have a question that I was wondering if you, or someone else, could possibly answer here.

I have two Linksys wrt54g routers; one that’s in use within my home, and the other one is just sitting on a shelf (it was a freebie from a friend). Originally, I wanted to see if I utilize the second wireless router as a bridge, but I could never figure out how this could be done, and some of the early information that I saw on the web indicated that this couldn’t be done.

Recently, I’ve learned that my second Linksys wireless router can be turned into a bridge if both routers have been upgraded with the firmware from Sveasoft.

I tried to read and understand the generalized instructions on the Sveasoft site, but I can’t recall anything dealing with my issue. I was wondering if those same step-by-step repeater instructions can be used to make the second wireless router into a bridge, and make it communicate with the primary wireless router, or are there some alterations to those repeater instructions that need to be made for this to happen? Thanks.

 

[bcastner]

Forum member sawbuck has contributed on the Sveasoft site a very well done WDS FAQ, essentially a rewrite of what he posted above.

jwbarrington, a bridge vs. repeater are exclusive modes for the router.

Perhaps you can provide more details to let us help you with one mode or the other?

Or see what member sawbuck has written, and other helpers:

http://docs.sveasoft.com/

http://www.sveasoft.com/modules/phpBB2/viewforum.php?f=11

 

[jwbarrington]

My primary wrt54g has a desktop connected directly to it, and it has two other computers connected wirelessly. The other wrt54g is just sitting on a shelf, and not in use at the moment.

I have a ReplayTV unit that has an Ethernet port that allows the unit to upload or download information, but it’s in an area of the house where it would be difficult to run a cat5 cable. I was seriously thinking about buying a wireless bridge for it until I learned that the wrt54g can be turned into a bridge through a firmware upgrade from Sveasoft.

Although I feel that I’m pretty decent around computers, I’m weak in the field of networks. Playing with my home system has helped me considerably, but I’m still very far away from knowing all the lingo.

 

[sawback]

Hi jwbarrington:

It sounds like you should be able to use your second router as basically a client. To do this:

1. Plug your computer into the 2nd linksys router's ethernet port.

2. Log on to the linksys' GUI

3. While you're at the Setup tab, either disable the DHCP server (I'm not sure this will work, Bill can clarify) or set the DHCP range outside of the range provided by the main Access Point (your primary linksys). For example, Starting IP Address: 192.168.1.200 Maximum Number of Leases: 5.

4. Click on the Wireless tab.

5. Under the Basic Settings tab, change Wireless Mode from AP (Access Point) to Client.

6. Now change the linksys Client's IP Address to something different on the same subnet, e.g. 192.168.1.2

7. Now you can try hooking up your ReplayTV unit to the Client linksys. If your ReplayTV picks up its IP address dynamically/from DHCP then it should get a 192.168.1.xxx number from one of the routers (default is anything in the range of 192.168.1.100-149; the example I gave for the secondary router would give IP range 192.168.1.200-204), otherwise you'd have to give it one in this subnet, e.g. 192.168.1.5.

That should work, assuming that you are in the same house. Correct me if I'm wrong, Bill.

If you're finding that the signal strength is not strong enough then you can go the Sveasoft route for a stronger signal on both WRT54g's... For $20 you get good firmware and excellent/almost instant support for any of your questions.

Regards,
Tom Wolfe