Customer objections to bying "Nortel"?

[firefoxfire]

Is anyone having any objections from customers when you are trying to sell them "Nortel"? I am making sure I mention that they were bought by Avaya and they are now called Avaya/Nortel.

I have had a few IT "geeks" try to scare my clinets about buying old obsolete Nortel stuff.

I believe in installing tried and true reliable and dependable components and Nortel is just that.

How about your experience?

 

[GordonKapesMZ4]

In my opinion, people abandoning their Nortel equipment for Cisco, Allworx or less developed systems are sheep following what the popular media and IT folks are telling them. Cisco has done a great job at marketing, while Nortel lacked in this field. If a real Telecom person was trained properly, they would realize that a Nortel/Avaya voice product is far superior to Cisco and the others....

 

[phoneguy610]

The IT GEEKs have been pushing hosted and freepbx as well... It is fine by me, i have looked like a hero a few times this year already by coming in and cleaning up after the incompetent have failed

 

[GordonKapesMZ4]

OH and firefox....I wasnt trying to offend you, I was refeering to the Cisco and hosted pushers out there in the field that don't want to believe what a reliable prodcut the Nortel/Avaya systems are.

 

[DigitelD]

Many Cisco systems have had to be replaced. Let's face it, IT guys usually don't know telephony. A Cisco system is mostly a telephony system that plugs into switches and routers. IT guys can take care of the network stuff but the telephony part they just don't know. It is easier for a telecom tech to learn networking than for an IT tech to learn telephony.

SHK Certified (School of Hard Knocks)
NCSS, ATSP/IP

 

[firefoxfire]

So true. I notice they are not good at customer training, system calibrating and customer follow up as well as cable management. Most are not even licensed for low voltage and are not even legally allow to do anything with low voltage cabling I'd truth be told. In this state anyway.

 

[curlycord]

I have a few large customers that are sorry they purchased Cisco.

Too bad, they just got it right with BCM450/50 Rls 6 and now its all over.
At least it's looking true to their work and that is Avaya will incorporate the BCM features into IP Office and that you can now use the Nortel sets given you add the right hardware.

We get the odd objection because the "heard" but I tell customers like it is, system and parts are sold/supported until such a date, and if you have a warehouse and state of the art refurbishing center like we do you can tell them you will support it even longer...if a dealer buys from us or alike they can say the same thing.

Argue me if you will but I told a customer the other day whose KSU was starting to crash the odd time after 15 years that the Companion system in my opinion is still the best there is and again told them like it is, got a P.O. for a NEW MICS and CP (to replace Flash) and kept Companions intact.
Mind you we do not need UTAM codes in Canada.

As for IT versus Telephony it will be us whom installs but IT whom maintains for the IP type systems and the techs will be the support when needed, this does of course depend on both the client and their IT dept if any.
As for digital systems the song remains the same for now.




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curlycord

http://www.curlycord.com

 

[GordonKapesMZ4]

I support Curly's comments 200 percent.....

I work for a large retail company in the USA and recently was talking to a telecom tech in our office and he was telling me how ridiculous it is with Cisco. You have to buy a license practically every month in order to support and maintain a large PBX. The system reboots and fails repeatedly, while the small portion of the campus using a Nortel Option PBX never fails and the Meridian Mail has never had a major outage in 20 years.

We were running on multiple Option 81s and 61s in our corporate offices 10 years or longer without software upgrades and the system still ran as awesome as the day it was installed, no blackouts, no problems....the system just chugged away.

I've read much corporate propaganda at my company at how "bad" our "old" Meridian PBX and Norstar switches are and how much better we will all be when we have our Cisco phones. This false assumption was pretty much based on the look of the phones and lack of upgrades on the phones themselves. Our offices were still running M2008 non HF sets and M2616 sets without displays for most individuals. Caller ID from the outside was non existent. Only the Admin's and Execs received the Display module phones. Also, the switch was never programmed to alert with distinctive ringing between internal and external lines....so there was this artificial assertion that the Meridian system was outdated and non upgradable.

It's obvious that a Meridian Option PBX can be fully upgradable to a CS1000M or CS2100 with the addition of the digital M39xx sets and the 11XX and 12XX VOIP sets that function the same if not better than the Cisco phones in my opinion.

When I brought this up to our telecom IT staff, they basically told me to "shut the F up and mind my own business, we're going Cisco, Nortel and Avaya sucks"! They were brainwashed that in order to receive CLID, distinctive ringing, and IP phones, they needed to upgrade to Cisco not upgrade the Nortel switches.

One day a new "Cloud" expert came and talked to me about my new upgrade to Microsoft Outlook and I asked her if we were going to get "Unified Messaging" so I could receive my Voice Mails via email....she looked at me like a "ghost" and had no clue.

So Cisco has come in and did their song and dance and the corporate campus is now 90% Cisco phones, with the phones slowly being rolled out into our retail stores as well and replacing Norstar MICS systems.

It makes me ill at the ignorance of people throwing away great Nortel systems. I heard also a large university in Indiana is throwing away their CS2100 for Microsoft Lync and divesting of their 11XX sets throughout campus for Polycom Tanjay phones. AGAIN! Those 11XX sets can be used on a Microsoft Lync platform exactly like a Tanjay phone, why throw the 11xx sets away?????

I need a drink and it's Saturday night, so see ya guys later!

 

[allworxguy]

This is a great topic.

Let's face it, Avaya bought the rights to the Nortel product with only one intention in mind... to swallow and kill the product. They purchased the customer base of their closest rival in order migrate them to the Avaya product line. They made the IPO compatible with Norstar phones not because they wanted to, but because it made good business sense. They are now all going EOL and those who moved to the IPO will now have to buy Avaya phones. It was all a well calculated plan/plot.

There was a legitimate bid from RIM to buy Nortel's legacy and keep the product alive and in Canada, but the majority of Nortel shareholders (American banks and fund companies) threw out the bid.

I will sell a refurbed Norstar as an in expensive system for those who can not afford current technology. I will upgrade existing Norstar's again for the same reason. But I won't mislead a customer into thinking they are making a good business decision by buying an obsolete system, that is no longer being made/supported, when current technologies are far more capable. Allowing them to communicate more efficiently in the 21st century (Audio/video/text, etc).

So now we are left with an out of date product. Regardless of how good and stable the Nortel product is/was (I have some customers on 308's/616's DR1 that still run perfectly), would you buy a "new" product knowing it was obsolete and there is no manufacturer support? There has not been an upgrade to the CICS/MICS operating system in almost 10 years. Would buy a new computer running windows 95?

Marv

http://www.telemarv.ca

 

[DigitelD]

I understand that the future is VOIP. But you cannot beat the reliability of the digital system. Most people don't use the applications and don't need a VOIP system. We installed a system with VOIP phones and everyone is nervous due to network issues. We just installed a digital system and all is well with no issues.

SHK Certified (School of Hard Knocks)
NCSS, ATSP/IP

 

[KE407122]

Thoughtful answers.

As much as I've enjoyed the advent of interconnect, the digital revolution and now the IP revolution, it is irresponsible to recommend product that is discontinued, end of sale, and pending end of support. We had digital hybrid key PBX's that worked solidly long after their best before date. Because of the initial sales of the product lines, refurb sets, and set/line cards were easily obtained. Because of in-house expertise we didn't rely on vendor or by then completely non-existent manufacturer support.

We probably could have continued for several more years, and missed the teething pains of IP telephony, however it was the single system cards, the power supplies, EPROMS, cabinet interconnection cables, backplanes and other items were rapidly becoming limited to source and left us in an unacceptable position of risk.

The IT mindset and the dominant direction now is one of continual upgrade, patch and replacement as opposed to a install, program and leave. Bless us, the telecom side of the house is having a hard time with this as we hate continually going back to something we installed and programmed, something that should do what it was purchased to do without further modification or disruption.

Case in point, Essential voice communications and Next Generation 911 will not even be a voice system. I don't even have a copper facility line to my new house. What for? The aging, expensive outside plant is deteriorating faster than it could even be repaired or replaced? The carrier subscontracts that out now anyway. The copper line phone and facility is dead and digital is too.

It doesn't mean I like it or believe that ethic but I'll never have to go back to the customer six months later and tell him his system has to be replaced. There was far too much of that happening back with the Y2K (Year 2000) with people that bought non-Y2K compatible product within one year of Y2K; only to have the same vendor come back and propose upgrade or replacement solutions that were far more expensive than the initial purchase.

To the customers, it smelled. The employment crunch and crash of IT industry in early 2000 was deserved.

KE407122
'Who is this guy named Lo Cel and why does he keep paging me?'

 

[GordonKapesMZ4]

Yes, the Norstar is dead and BCM is being dumped soon, BUT I do have to argue that while the CS1000 and CS2100 Nortel products are not being discontinued anytime soon, most major universities and hospitals have dumped their Nortel investments, even IP Softswitch investment in exchange for Cisco and Microsoft Lync, instead of being linked and upgraded to Avaya Aura. I think IT people feel its "cool" to have a Cisco phone on a desk, even though they do less functions, require more licenses and are less user friendly than the Nortel IP sets in my opinion.

No EOL's on either the Communication Server platform nor the IP 11xx and IP 12xx sets have been announced and according to a source I know at Avaya....these sets are not on the EOL list anytime soon. So if I was that big name university in Indiana, Big Red, why would I throw away my investment in 11xx IP sets and CS2100 when they are both fully compatible with Microsfot Lync?

 

[hawks]

I am finding that if I give them a choice the smaller 5 line 8 to 12 handset mom and pop shop chooses the CICS even after I tell them that it's discontinued. Biggest question I get is how long will parts be avalible on the aftermarket side. Which we all know will be years and years.....

 

[curlycord]

The more people buy the new stuff the more parts become available on the old stuff so yes a long time.

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curlycord

http://www.curlycord.com

 

[KE407122]

Hi,
I agree that retention of existing CS1000 or 1100 series-sets be as long as practical however, I am cautious to purchase more. I don't deal with Mom and Pop's anymore, I could still source out and maintain a 1958 Northern Electric 1A2 shoebox for them. Techological marketing has more to do with vanity and status than efficacy and reason.

I wonder if the university has a commerce program that could do a case study on that acquisition. Marginal utility may not have been an important evaluation criteria.




KE407122
'Who is this guy named Lo Cel and why does he keep paging me?'

 

[SYQUEST]

a 1958 Northern Electric 1A2 shoebox"?

1A2 was first released for production in 1962 in the Bell System by WESTERN ELECTRIC! Only 1A1 existed in 1958!!

Get your facts and history straight...

....JIM....

 

[KE407122]

Sorry, hadn't worked on 1A1 or 1A2 since 1988. Different Assembly plant, We didn't see Western Electric on the boxes, components sometimes, just Northern Electric.

Northern Electric manufactured equipment based on designs and processes licensed from Western Electric, primarily for the use of the Bell Telephone Company of Canada. Western bit the dust in 1984 and Northern Electric emerged as Northern Telecom.

KE407122
'Who is this guy named Lo Cel and why does he keep paging me?'

 

[GordonKapesMZ4]

I think it really just hit me today while reading an article about the Nortel patents, that Nortel is gone....quite depressing. No more going into a new building, office, university, hospital and looking for the latest and greatest Nortel product installed in an institution.

Nortel ruled in the 1990's, you saw their phones everywhere, from the ABC News to the World Trade Center to the major hosptials and universities in the USA and Canada and world! Now it's Cisco's spotlight I guess? Again, everyone thinks it's cool to have a Cisco phone on their desk....but they don't know what they are missing the with Nortel sets....the Nortel ring tones, dial key clicks, the sleek handset, the interactive color coded buttons and clean styling.....Yes Avaya produces these now and isn't announcing an EOL, but it's no longer Nortel....

 

[SYQUEST]

My desk will NEVER have a Cisco phone on it!! Currently, it has a WECO 2636CA1-51 CALL DIRECTOR™ and a 3568HT-56 Autovon™ key telset w/ a 4A Speakerphone set on it.

I think the secondary market will keep some of the Nortel stuff alive for sometime. You have companies like PANASEAS International producing plastics for not only NT sets, but Avaya and others.

....JIM....

 

[exsmogger]

A Call Director? Wow, I haven't seen one of those since my days at Ma Bell ended back in 1984.

Brian Cox
Oregon Phone

http://www.OregonPhone.com

http://www.linkedin.com/in/briancox1952