Tek-Tips is the largest IT community on the Internet today!
Members share and learn making Tek-Tips Forums the best source of peer-reviewed technical information on the Internet!
-
Congratulations derfloh on being selected by the Tek-Tips community for having the most helpful posts in the forums last week. Way to Go!
BNC Termination
- Thread starter rpearson
- Start date
AvayaNovice
Vendor
Thomas and Betts is the way to go, they make a snap and seal BNC connector as well.
- Thread starter
- #3
Servamatic
IS-IT--Management
for something better than T & B try these guys.
One tool can do F-conn...RCA and BNC
And despite what someone on here might say, a better connector than snap n seal... and tests prove it...
Richard S. Anderson, RCDD
One tool can do F-conn...RCA and BNC
And despite what someone on here might say, a better connector than snap n seal... and tests prove it...
Richard S. Anderson, RCDD
daronwilson
Vendor
Hmmm, seems to me Betamax was technically better than VHS as well, but where did they go?
Seriously, unless you are running some very high tech stuff, either connector choice should do fine for you. Many cable companies in my area use the Snap and Seal, we use them routinely for CATV. We also use several other types, sometimes depending on what we are carrying on the coax.
I've found that most generic coax strippers are a little off base. The snap and seal tool that has a stripper built in works very well for snap and seal connectors, but may not be the right dimentions for other fittings. My suggestion would be to choose the type of fitting and crimper for you and then buy the stripper that is recommended for that tool and fitting.
Good Luck!
It is only my opinion, based on my experience and education...I am always willing to learn, educate me!
Daron J. Wilson, RCDD
daron.wilson@lhmorris.com
Seriously, unless you are running some very high tech stuff, either connector choice should do fine for you. Many cable companies in my area use the Snap and Seal, we use them routinely for CATV. We also use several other types, sometimes depending on what we are carrying on the coax.
I've found that most generic coax strippers are a little off base. The snap and seal tool that has a stripper built in works very well for snap and seal connectors, but may not be the right dimentions for other fittings. My suggestion would be to choose the type of fitting and crimper for you and then buy the stripper that is recommended for that tool and fitting.
Good Luck!
It is only my opinion, based on my experience and education...I am always willing to learn, educate me!
Daron J. Wilson, RCDD
daron.wilson@lhmorris.com
AvayaNovice
Vendor
Let me be blunt:
Servamatic -- you know your stuff about a lot of things.
When it comes to anything involving coax and CATV, you might want to think twice.
I probably do... 50-75 CATV installations per week (I am a sub contractor for one of the big ones). And what we do is highly sensitive to signal loss, environmental effects, etc. etc. etc. so I know what works, and what doesn't.
Digicon... cool fittings, not as cool as Thomas And Betts. They don't have the same environmental protection, they don't have the same locking seal, and they certainly aren't as affordable.
The ones that you provided the link for I use in our headend, and they work great for small jumpers... but I quit using them when I figured out that the Thomas and Betts connectors still use the same tool, feel better when being installed, and are considerably cheaper.
According to my inventory sheet, I went through around 3,600 RG-6 and RG-59 (older plant) F-connectors in November. I'll put my life on the line when it comes to Thomas and Betts any day. And I do like your tool's capability of doing BNC, RCA, and f-connectors... but it's kind of like a swiss army knife... great when you're in a bind, but there are certainly better tools for the specific functions. When it comes to f-connectors and BNC fittings... try Thomas and Betts. Every employee we have uses them (a team of 20 guys) and we do around 1,000 CATV installations per week. I think that's factual enough.
And if you want to get into signal loss, etc. etc. versus each fitting... we can. I've done the tests, I've seen the tests, and I've got plenty of results.
Servamatic -- you know your stuff about a lot of things.
When it comes to anything involving coax and CATV, you might want to think twice.
I probably do... 50-75 CATV installations per week (I am a sub contractor for one of the big ones). And what we do is highly sensitive to signal loss, environmental effects, etc. etc. etc. so I know what works, and what doesn't.
Digicon... cool fittings, not as cool as Thomas And Betts. They don't have the same environmental protection, they don't have the same locking seal, and they certainly aren't as affordable.
The ones that you provided the link for I use in our headend, and they work great for small jumpers... but I quit using them when I figured out that the Thomas and Betts connectors still use the same tool, feel better when being installed, and are considerably cheaper.
According to my inventory sheet, I went through around 3,600 RG-6 and RG-59 (older plant) F-connectors in November. I'll put my life on the line when it comes to Thomas and Betts any day. And I do like your tool's capability of doing BNC, RCA, and f-connectors... but it's kind of like a swiss army knife... great when you're in a bind, but there are certainly better tools for the specific functions. When it comes to f-connectors and BNC fittings... try Thomas and Betts. Every employee we have uses them (a team of 20 guys) and we do around 1,000 CATV installations per week. I think that's factual enough.
And if you want to get into signal loss, etc. etc. versus each fitting... we can. I've done the tests, I've seen the tests, and I've got plenty of results.
It really boils down to what the application is. For occasional use SNS or other compression fittings are OK. However if you are doing a high density install crimps are smaller which is good on the back of a big router.
I still get out my die sets every now and then...
Cablepuller, what kind of cable do you want to terminate and what is the application?
BTW - Betamax is WAY better than VHS! The tape handling alone is the reason I used time shift on Beta over VHS. Now I use one of those heartless but handy DVRs.
I still get out my die sets every now and then...
Cablepuller, what kind of cable do you want to terminate and what is the application?
BTW - Betamax is WAY better than VHS! The tape handling alone is the reason I used time shift on Beta over VHS. Now I use one of those heartless but handy DVRs.
Servamatic
IS-IT--Management
Avaya
Since you don’t have the capabilities of performing manufacturer type tests for both signal loss and environmental I will ignore your comments as being ignorant of the facts.
There was a reason AT&T put the Digicon as the top choice and T&B as an also ran. I have been through the manufacturing and testing facilities and seen the actual tests that AT&T had performed on all F-Connectors.
So frankly you might want to think twice before you tell someone else to do so.
Cool is not a valid criteria for a connector.
Connectors should be graded on fit, functionality and reliability.
They cost more for 2 reasons, they are a better connectors, especially when it comes to outdoor use, and T&B does have a better distribution network.
Richard S. Anderson, RCDD
Since you don’t have the capabilities of performing manufacturer type tests for both signal loss and environmental I will ignore your comments as being ignorant of the facts.
There was a reason AT&T put the Digicon as the top choice and T&B as an also ran. I have been through the manufacturing and testing facilities and seen the actual tests that AT&T had performed on all F-Connectors.
So frankly you might want to think twice before you tell someone else to do so.
Cool is not a valid criteria for a connector.
Connectors should be graded on fit, functionality and reliability.
They cost more for 2 reasons, they are a better connectors, especially when it comes to outdoor use, and T&B does have a better distribution network.
Richard S. Anderson, RCDD
daronwilson
Vendor
Richard,
Do you have any test data to share? It really helps us weigh the options if you provide more than just your opinion. Simply the fact that one cable company chooses them is not much of a test, my cable company uses TandB. I've found many times that the reason choices are made for one specific product may be less than scientific.
I'm very anxious to see your test data showing the digicon is a better fit, has increased functionality, and is more reliable than the Snap and Seal type of connector. Personally I'm looking at loss and integrity in the connector, I want to make sure what I have in the wire stays in as it goes through the connector and that it doesn't degrade the signal.
Anyway, share your data so we can also be in the know!
It is only my opinion, based on my experience and education...I am always willing to learn, educate me!
Daron J. Wilson, RCDD
daron.wilson@lhmorris.com
Do you have any test data to share? It really helps us weigh the options if you provide more than just your opinion. Simply the fact that one cable company chooses them is not much of a test, my cable company uses TandB. I've found many times that the reason choices are made for one specific product may be less than scientific.
I'm very anxious to see your test data showing the digicon is a better fit, has increased functionality, and is more reliable than the Snap and Seal type of connector. Personally I'm looking at loss and integrity in the connector, I want to make sure what I have in the wire stays in as it goes through the connector and that it doesn't degrade the signal.
Anyway, share your data so we can also be in the know!
It is only my opinion, based on my experience and education...I am always willing to learn, educate me!
Daron J. Wilson, RCDD
daron.wilson@lhmorris.com
Servamatic
IS-IT--Management
Sorry to say, I cannot share the test data.
Most manufacturers will not share actual test data; they will share a sanitized version.
Trust me, AT&T did not decide on a whim, I will tell you that when it comes to ingress from moisture it is a pretty cool test, they actually suck a colored fluid into the coax via the connector and at the time the Digicon was the only one that allowed ZERO ingress. I had a sample that actually had about 13" of dye up in the coax from another manufacturer, who shall remain unnamed.
This is just one of the tests run on F-Connectors when AT&T put out the RFP for a standardized connector.
The Digicon has a triple seal, which makes leakage (signal leakage) and ingress nearly impossible, as with any connector a lousy installer can screw it up.
In the interest of full disclosure, ICM does have a few products in their line that I helped design, so yes I have been around this industry and worked with several manufacturers on a consulting basis, and I do have my prejudices because I have seen many of these companies operations on a personal level.
Richard S. Anderson, RCDD
Most manufacturers will not share actual test data; they will share a sanitized version.
Trust me, AT&T did not decide on a whim, I will tell you that when it comes to ingress from moisture it is a pretty cool test, they actually suck a colored fluid into the coax via the connector and at the time the Digicon was the only one that allowed ZERO ingress. I had a sample that actually had about 13" of dye up in the coax from another manufacturer, who shall remain unnamed.
This is just one of the tests run on F-Connectors when AT&T put out the RFP for a standardized connector.
The Digicon has a triple seal, which makes leakage (signal leakage) and ingress nearly impossible, as with any connector a lousy installer can screw it up.
In the interest of full disclosure, ICM does have a few products in their line that I helped design, so yes I have been around this industry and worked with several manufacturers on a consulting basis, and I do have my prejudices because I have seen many of these companies operations on a personal level.
Richard S. Anderson, RCDD
- Thread starter
- #11
OK..............I will be doing some BNC terminations with RG-59\U,for a large security cam placement.My hopes are to find a solution to quickly term the ends in a quality manner.I like SNS, so I will look into that solution.
Thanks Plenty For The Responses.
Thanks Plenty For The Responses.
AvayaNovice
Vendor
Servamatic,
Let's take a look at the facts:
A) Our tests were to analyze how these fittings stood up over time. On the tap, we placed weather boots (I believe 1/2" boots) on the ports of the tap, and then used a variety of fittings. We then placed the tap int oservice for about 3 months on the coast of California... a pretty gnarly area. Digicon's fittings by the time our test concluded... were completely corroded, allowed moisture to get inside... the center conducter of the RG-6 was corroded, unacceptable by anyone's terms. Thomas and Betts connectors were dry, sealed, and easily disconnected and reconnected.
B) Comcast (AT&T), Charter Communications, Cox, Adelphia, and all of the independent outfits I have ever worked with have ALL USED THOMAS AND BETTS ACROSS THE BOARD. I don't really care what AT&T decided on... AT&T's broadband division existed for how long? Not very... and (I may be wrong on this, but I think I'm correct) most of AT&T's broadband division was sold to Comcast.
C) Hardline adapters, fittings, ceizures, etc. are all made by TnB as well, and interface nicely with their inside wiring / drop products.
D) Hands down, TnB RG-11 fittings are the best I have ever used in the business, their environmental seal is much higher quality than Digicon. I can say that just from putting taps in buckets of water and seeing if it penetrates the fitting (again, with a weather boot).
On top of all of this...
Let's get into ingress as well as signal loss. As far as signal loss is concerned... as long as the shielding is completely deflowered and the fitting compresses it against the outside jacket, as well as the dielectric being kept in a circular form, flush with the back of fitting, and the center conductor doesn't exceed more than 3/16" of an inch from the outside end of the fitting, then signal loss will probably not occur as a result of the fitting. That being said, you could probably make a fitting out of duct tape and still not lose any signal (figuratively speaking).
HOWEVER.
The reverse path is a different story. Much more affected by leakage, much more sensitive to ingress, etc. The majority of signal leakage in CATV occurs at the tap where there are either bad terminators, or the lack of terminators, or trap filters. With today's fittings, most if not all signal leakage is zipped up, especially with weather boots and fitting savers.
So to make the statement that Digicon is superior with zero ingress, is far fetched to me. I'd have to see the setup to believe its applicability.
I don't doubt your knowledge, experiences, or education Servamatic. Simply put: I know CATV, I do OSP construction for two of the biggest CATV companies in America, I follow their standards and guidelines to the T, and we wouldn't dream of using digicon fittings if stranded on an island. Thomas and Betts products are highly developed, highly integrated, and very universal. Our company just doesn't have time to experiment any further with fittings and what not, when what we have works absolutely perfect. Our CATV system uses analog TV, digital TV, and cable modem services. There isn't any room for error, simply put.
Let's take a look at the facts:
A) Our tests were to analyze how these fittings stood up over time. On the tap, we placed weather boots (I believe 1/2" boots) on the ports of the tap, and then used a variety of fittings. We then placed the tap int oservice for about 3 months on the coast of California... a pretty gnarly area. Digicon's fittings by the time our test concluded... were completely corroded, allowed moisture to get inside... the center conducter of the RG-6 was corroded, unacceptable by anyone's terms. Thomas and Betts connectors were dry, sealed, and easily disconnected and reconnected.
B) Comcast (AT&T), Charter Communications, Cox, Adelphia, and all of the independent outfits I have ever worked with have ALL USED THOMAS AND BETTS ACROSS THE BOARD. I don't really care what AT&T decided on... AT&T's broadband division existed for how long? Not very... and (I may be wrong on this, but I think I'm correct) most of AT&T's broadband division was sold to Comcast.
C) Hardline adapters, fittings, ceizures, etc. are all made by TnB as well, and interface nicely with their inside wiring / drop products.
D) Hands down, TnB RG-11 fittings are the best I have ever used in the business, their environmental seal is much higher quality than Digicon. I can say that just from putting taps in buckets of water and seeing if it penetrates the fitting (again, with a weather boot).
On top of all of this...
Let's get into ingress as well as signal loss. As far as signal loss is concerned... as long as the shielding is completely deflowered and the fitting compresses it against the outside jacket, as well as the dielectric being kept in a circular form, flush with the back of fitting, and the center conductor doesn't exceed more than 3/16" of an inch from the outside end of the fitting, then signal loss will probably not occur as a result of the fitting. That being said, you could probably make a fitting out of duct tape and still not lose any signal (figuratively speaking).
HOWEVER.
The reverse path is a different story. Much more affected by leakage, much more sensitive to ingress, etc. The majority of signal leakage in CATV occurs at the tap where there are either bad terminators, or the lack of terminators, or trap filters. With today's fittings, most if not all signal leakage is zipped up, especially with weather boots and fitting savers.
So to make the statement that Digicon is superior with zero ingress, is far fetched to me. I'd have to see the setup to believe its applicability.
I don't doubt your knowledge, experiences, or education Servamatic. Simply put: I know CATV, I do OSP construction for two of the biggest CATV companies in America, I follow their standards and guidelines to the T, and we wouldn't dream of using digicon fittings if stranded on an island. Thomas and Betts products are highly developed, highly integrated, and very universal. Our company just doesn't have time to experiment any further with fittings and what not, when what we have works absolutely perfect. Our CATV system uses analog TV, digital TV, and cable modem services. There isn't any room for error, simply put.
jeffmoss26
Technical User
wow, I have been following this thread for a couple days. I choose to use T&B products because my cable company, Adelphia uses them. I'm sure that if a major company trusts their products in all their installs, that they will work great for me.
jeff moss
jeff moss
OK!!! I like SNS connectors too...
Since cablepuller will be doing a "BNC terminations with RG-59\U,for a large security cam placement" I would suggest calling the folks at Milestek (800)524-7444 and getting set up for 3 piece crimp on connectors. Be sure to have the cable manufacturer and cable number information available when you call. If you buy 250 connectors the tools are free. They will even set up the stripper for your cable.
Crimp connectors only take slightly more time to install but are much smaller in size and price. Typically you are looking at around $5 more for a SNS59HECBNC than a comparable 3 piece crimp connector.
I am not as confident in a center pin that is not crimped onto the wire but that is mostly just my prejudice.
Since cablepuller will be doing a "BNC terminations with RG-59\U,for a large security cam placement" I would suggest calling the folks at Milestek (800)524-7444 and getting set up for 3 piece crimp on connectors. Be sure to have the cable manufacturer and cable number information available when you call. If you buy 250 connectors the tools are free. They will even set up the stripper for your cable.
Crimp connectors only take slightly more time to install but are much smaller in size and price. Typically you are looking at around $5 more for a SNS59HECBNC than a comparable 3 piece crimp connector.
I am not as confident in a center pin that is not crimped onto the wire but that is mostly just my prejudice.
- Status