Backup Solution

[IdahoTech]

Hello All,

I need to come up with a backup solution for our Novell servers and posted in the Backup area but was told to try here also.

We have 3 servers running Novell 6 and one running Novell 5.1. My boss had gotten a quote on a backup solution and it comes to 24,000!! Now Mind you the servers all have (2) 20 gig drives in them and about half of this stores the data.

We also have one main location and 3 remote sites. We connect via a 11 Mbps airlan. The companies suggestion is to put it at our main location and pull from the remote sites. This is a concern for us as depending on the data and how much there is of it to back up how will it perform??

Any help or pushes in what to do would be a great help. Backup has not been really a area I am familiar with here. We do Burned backups of our data for SASI but that is about it.

What do you use? Any suggestions on how we can do it cheaply and effectively without straining our school budget?
What software and hardware would you suggest: Tape, ATA Drives or both? in one word...Help!?

Thanks for any replies and I hope to hear soon. This company is being a pain in the but about pushing it onto us.

IdahoTech
'Only two things are infinite - the Universe and human Stupidity, and I'm not so sure about the Universe' Albert Einstein

http://www.sd60.k12.id.us

 

[Provogeek]

Having a high capcity backup solution at the main site and pulling from the remote sites over the 11mb link may be a good idea.

Having only a single place to administer the tapes will lower cost and help with your own personal sanity.

When a backup occures, it will be between the hours of 10pm and 4am. Who uses the network at those times? Will it really matter if there is high traffic at those times?

Your quote does seem a bit high. If I was going to charge my customer 24k to install a backup solution, you would get the following.

I would sell you either Veritas or CA backup software
I would sell you a single backup unit capable of backing up 80 gigs of data
Install and configure the hardware.
Complete install and configuration of software on all 4 servers.
Complete testing of backup solution
Backup rotation documentation and instructions
1 year on site support
1 year publisher phone support (they charge for that now).
And there would still be room for a sys admin contract.


The software purchase for a Veritas solution would be about $795 for a single server license, $695 for the agent 3pack. The backup unit that would work for you would be somthing like a HP StorageWorks AIT 100 GB External Tape Drive, for around $3,899. Then there are tapes, for a two week rotation you will need 10 HP AIT-2 100 GB Data Cartridges for $57 each, then you would want to get an HP AIT Cleaning Cartridge for $27 (keeps the drive healthy)

My calculator brings that total cost to about $6000, add CA sales tax and that comes to about $6500. It would take about 16 hours to install, test, document, and train you on this install. At $170 an hour, that comes to $2720, bring the total cost to about $9220


So that leaves me to ask, what on earth did your vendor quote you?

You are also entitled to educational discounts, but you have to ask for them and in many cases, you have to hunt them down.

This is a typical issue in many schools and non-profits. There is a lot of stuff out there for the taking, you just have to ask for it. You can't expect a vedor to do it for you (cause we won't). If you take the time your self, hit the phones, push the buttons, talk to people, you can get stuff. Call Veritas or CA or anyone else that publishes backup software. Ask around, find the educational discounts (and possible donations). I have many clients who I have pointed in this direction who now get hardware from IBM, Cisco, and HP for next to nothing AND software from M$, Novell, and others for free or extreamly discounted. Many of the programs have their limits, and are first come first serve. So pick up that phone and call people, the worst that could happen would be they say no or they say they already donated.

 

[IdahoTech]

Hey there Provogeek,

Long time no see. Well here is what he quoted us for.

1 BakBone DataCenter Edition 2,995.00
1 BakBone 12 Slot Media option 2,325.00
1 BakBone Netware Thin Client 1,195.00
1 BakBone Open File Agent 4 Win 645.00
1 BakBone 250 GB VDL Upgrade 495.00
1 BakBone 500 GB VDL Upgrade 895.00
1 Yr Support & Upgrade Protection 1,539.00

1 ATABaby 1TB Raw Capacity 3,000.00
1 Overland Loader Express 1 LTO-1 Drive 8,944.00
20 LTO Media 1,224.00
1 Cleaning Tape 83.75
1 Adaptec SCSI CARD 29160 227.50
1 SCSI Cable 47.40

Oh an yeah the total includes shipping 23,434.00

Well this is what he quoted us Provogeek. This is why it is so high. I will look into the one area solution meaning one at my main site and pulling in the other sites. You would be amazed sometimes here. Some people come in late at night or during the night if they can't sleep. Thats ok, we have video surveillance just in case something really bad happens....

As for the Information on donations and such from other companies. If you can just send me a short email telling me what this is your talking about. We are from a very small district and are not getting raises again this year, go figure. I would be very interested in hearing just a little as how to get going on that. I would love to jump on that as quick as possible. Just some info on what it entails. I hope that sounds clear enough. Don't want handouts, just some leads or help in going the right way.

Thanks for the info I will pass it onto my boss as well. Who knows maybe he might like your solution )

Have a good weekend and thanks again.....



IdahoTech
'Only two things are infinite - the Universe and human Stupidity, and I'm not so sure about the Universe' Albert Einstein

http://www.sd60.k12.id.us

 

[Provogeek]

Not to sure on the type of school your working for, but this seems like big time over kill.

Kinda like putting a V12 into a Honda Civic. A whole lot of engine, not much car.

If all you have is four servers, then all you need is a small business solution. I kinda get the impression you have NT servers also. How many total servers? and what OS? Do you have and NAS devices or SAN devices? From your first post I got the impression that the total network sotrage you have on all avilable servers is only 80GB (used or not). Is this correct?

I've never used this BakBone software, will have to download it and see if it's worth the cost. from what you got quoted, it almost seems like your school is getting reamed. The backup software may be good (I'll be checking it out, always looking for better solutions), but the cost is way up there (and they have a post that TOC is better than Veritas). I found nothing on these product you listed.
BakBone 12 Slot Media option
BakBone 250 GB VDL Upgrade
BakBone 500 GB VDL Upgrade

It looks like the software does not run on NetWare at all and and just runs on a Windows box. Then they use the agents to get the NetWare backup. It great and all to have your backup on a different server. Backups tend to crash servers, better it be on somthing users won't notice. But 3k for an ATABaby? I hope I am wrong in assuming that is a clone PC. Clones are great, for the home, they have little place in a business. A server should be brand name for the reason of warranty. After 1 year, the vars warranty will run out (if they even give you one), then you have to deal with each individual hardware manufacture for hardware replacment for defects.

Going HP/Compaq, IBM, Dell you get the warranty, you get the single point of contact. Any problem, one number, and the warranty is usually 3 years (with option to extend). If you have ever delt with a server down in the middle of the school year, then going this route is well worth the extra cost in can bring in getting the server.

 

[marvhuffaker]

Shelley, Idaho. Interesting I graduated from Rigby, but don't tell anybody. I was just up there for a family reunion. Saw the fireworks in I.F. that they had to stop cause somebody tripped over the cord (blame the wind, whatever, we all know that someone is getting fired).

About your backup solution that they quoted.. One thing I've seen the big companies and school or state contracts is they do a MASS OVERKILL at first, because they don't think you're smart enough to see through the B.S. If you start asking them why you need this and that, and why they picked one technology over another, and why do you need a loader that size.. They will then realize you aren't stupid and back off on some of it. With state contracts, sometimes the vendors are cocky because they figure you will take whatever they tell you to. Don't let the push you around and I'd really recommend getting quotes from other companies as well.

Just don't settle for their first quote, that's all I'm saying. make them work for it and make sure you get exactly what you need with a little room to grow. nothing more, nothing less. Save your budget for important things like taters and stuff.

Marvin

Marvin Huffaker MCNE, CNE
Marvin Huffaker Consulting

http://www.redjuju.com

 

[IdahoTech]

Hey Provogeek,

Believe it or not we do not have any NT servers. We have a few Linux servers that we use as our firewall and for our mail, but that is it.

I noticed that as well. We would have to spend extra money on a new server for 2000.

The BabyATA is some off brand and it is not a desktop but a 4 Drive ATA Raid solution that can be found here:

http://www.openstore.com/disk-atababy.htm

Yeah it is overkill on what he quoted. I nearly fell out of my chair!! I have been looking into DELL for thier Powervault 132T Tape backup. We can get a good solution with a few nice extras for about 14,000, but that is before talking to our Rep and checking into school discounts.

Thanks for all the input on this Provogeek and Marvin. Yeah, I have noticed that certain vendors tend to get a little pushy and tell you that this is what you need end of story. Me, I don't go for that and have gotten in trouble for being defiant on certain things because they think they have the run of the house hoping that this little po-dunk school tech doesn't know what he needs and belives the strong arm approach will get them in. Not in my house!!

I try to get the best price and question everything they are selling. Once this quote came to me I started looking all over for other solutions. Just with the backup solution I am not to up on what is best and haven't been in that area for a long time, but I am learning real quick...

Well again thanks guys and if you think of anything else or have any ideas on software for doing backup then let me know what you think is the best as far as simplicity yet still can get the job done in more ways than one.



IdahoTech
'Only two things are infinite - the Universe and human Stupidity, and I'm not so sure about the Universe' Albert Einstein

http://www.sd60.k12.id.us

 

[marvhuffaker]

Hey Idahotech, i was thinking over the weekend.. Not sure what your contractual limitations are, but have you ever dealt with Microserv in Idaho Falls? Three of their partners are very senior level network engineers. Half of their company works with Internet and ISP stuff, and the other half does network support. I would say they're probably the most honest Networking team in the area. If you haven't talked to them already, you might call them and see if they can help you out. Their website is

http://www.ida.net

(can't remember the phone #), and you should talk to either Darby Smith or Travis Johnson. Tell them I said hi. Darby is a personal friend and I also worked for them several years ago. Good guys.

Marvin



Marvin Huffaker MCNE, CNE
Marvin Huffaker Consulting

http://www.redjuju.com

 

[Ed Andres]

Before you get too far down this path, you may want to take a look at what Netware 6.5 has to offer in not only backup possibilities, but their Branch Office product. This is due to be released in August and from what I have heard, you may be able to greatly simplify your remote site backup and administration with Branch Office(BOMA). Also, NW6.5 will let you do snapshot backups to just about any media including CD, DVD, HD's or a SAN.

I will be attending a Hot Lab next week and report back any info I can find on this topic.

HTH
Ed

 

[IdahoTech]

Hey Ed,

Anything new that you learend about the backup on the Novell 6.5?? We are eligable for a update under our contract. Let me know if you leanred anything new. Right not the thing we are doing is imaging our drives onto new drives and putting the new drives into the system. They are about 2 and a half years old and figured it would help in keeping them up and running and give us a backup.

Idaho Tech

IdahoTech
'Only two things are infinite - the Universe and human Stupidity, and I'm not so sure about the Universe' Albert Einstein

http://www.sd60.k12.id.us

 

[Ed Andres]

Sorry for the delay. You know how those pesky vacations can make you lose track of things! The session I went to did not cover the backup issues too well but Netware 6.5 will let you do 'Snap-Shot' backups of pools and then you could write these to tape or another server or to a SAN.

If you didn't hear yet, 6.5 is shipping so get over to the customer care site and download away since you are entitled to the upgrade. I would also scour the doc's to learn more about this and also iSCSI which will let you put up a poor mans SAN.

HTH
Ed

 

[TheBoySmith]

The admin is the main problem but a sdlt drive in your server will backup 160Gb to 320Gb. That is plenty and with arcserve or backup exec get the remote agents.

Can't believe someone would try and rip you of like that when it is an extreamly simple solution.

Even having an just a dlt on each site would be cheaper I guess.

Lee Smith
Associated Network Services
Snr Systems Engineer
Lee.Smith@ANSPLC.Com