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arthurliz (TechnicalUser) (OP)
4 Jan 05 1:28
Here is the premise...
All of us have done extremely well in IT world, but....
We never seem to have had the respect, possilby the power,and even the cash that comes from being the person in charge...and I don't mean in charge of IT.

Our question is this, can you exit the IT world into something else, for example finance and because you are extremly familiar with IT you become a top dog?

Here is  a real life example. We know a pair of programmers who used to kill themselves writing software for securites traders. The programmers watched the traders make lots of money and toss a bone to the programmers. As we have heard it from the ex programmers, yes the bone was good and perhaps better than normal but hell if the traders made millions with the software, the programmers got thousands.
So the two guys completely quit IT pooled every nickel they had and then set up a own real live securites brokerage firm. Now they write software for themselves and make the bread based on successful trading strategies.

Anybody else quit IT and go dwon the road to fortune and perhaps eventually  fame?
Dimandja (Programmer)
4 Jan 05 9:14
I write banking software from time to time.  A few years ago, a colleague friend of mine shocked us all by joining one of the banks, and is now a top dog over there.  He has a good understanding of IT and banking; a combination that used to be good for top programmers, except he makes a lot more money now.

__________________________________________
Try Forum1391 for lively discussions

johnherman (MIS)
4 Jan 05 9:44
I know a guy who quit IT and made moderate fame and fortune as a rock 'n' roller.

Another guy was a P/A, got his MBA, went into project management and is now a VP at a credit card issuer, overseeing marketing operations (includes business and IT assets).

Another friend was programming for a casino in Atlantic City and would play poker at lunchtime for recreation. He has since quit his job and is a professional gambler.

-------------------------
The trouble with doing something right the first time is that noboby appreciates how difficult it was.
- Steven Wright

chiph (Programmer)
4 Jan 05 11:17
I have a friend who was an AS/400 programmer who left IT and started his own business selling CDs thru a website.  He's doing really well.  His life is pretty regular now (no insane hours) -- he takes orders, boxes them up, and takes them to the post office to be mailed twice a day.  In between, he answers email, goes to the gym, & watches a lot of movies.

Chip H.

____________________________________________________________________
Click here to learn Ways to help with Tsunami Relief
If you want to get the best response to a question, please read FAQ222-2244 first

bytehd (IS/IT--Management)
4 Jan 05 13:30
sounds nice
after writing code from age 15 to 40  and having
nothing to show for it, perhaps its my turn

George Walkey
Senior Geek in charge
http://www.insyncva.com

langleymass (MIS)
5 Jan 05 1:29
I'm actually taking some acting lessons. I am doing it for the job interviews. But if someone offers me an acting job, I doubt I will say no.
tekinme (Programmer)
18 Jan 05 15:01
From my perspective , quiting probably is not a good idea. One could possibly gradually work towards the management position in the Vertical(Like Securaties ,S/w in generaly) they are programming and s/w the role eventually .
Or
The other thing ppl in IT do is , they try to do part-time MBA and depending on the their major ,try to s/w the field or atleast get into Management position on IT side .

I have been thinking on the similiar lines for quite some time , thinking of working on MBA and make some changes to my 7yrs of IT career in a way which would help me leverage my exisisitng experience n get in better challenging managing role ..Let c

BTW, i am glad tht i joined this forum , looks like lot of ppl on the same page as me .. i appreciate everyone's input here
bytehd (IS/IT--Management)
18 Jan 05 15:36
yea teacup

we are all broke

my mechanic makes more than me

George Walkey
Senior Geek in charge
http://www.insyncva.com

Helpful Member!  BocaBurger (Vendor)
20 Jan 05 13:07
House appraiser for mortgages: Each Appraisal is $300 to $450. 90%+ of it is boilerplate text. Takes 30 minutes on site and 20 min. of research on the net, then print and fax or mail. Do 4 to 6 per day Mon. - Fri and 2 - 3 on Sat.

Martial Arts or Yoga teacher: Student fee is $55 to $85 per month. Have 125 to 200 students total with classes during the day & evening and Sat. AM. Give seminars at $100 to $250 per person every few months with 25 to 40 participants.

Sell stuff on E-bay. I bought an item retail for $29.00, sold it used on e-bay for $35.00 auction! Made more money overcharging for shipping & handling.

Why the heck am I still in Support?

BocaBurger
<===========================||////////////////|0
The pen is mightier than the sword, but the sword hurts more!

bytehd (IS/IT--Management)
20 Jan 05 13:28
"All of us have done extremely well in IT world"
is a faulty premise.

I know more technically than most of my peers,
but does that help me pay the power bill?
Nope.

George Walkey
Senior Geek in charge
http://www.insyncva.com

Onyxpurr (Programmer)
20 Jan 05 15:00
I guess I wouldn't be surprised if this happened often.  Apparently the burn out rate for programmers is 3 years, last I heard.
bytehd (IS/IT--Management)
20 Jan 05 15:04
then i did pretty good at 25yrs in
except that it no longer pays the bills
do its time to move on
too bad eh?

guess if you really like technology
its time to move to kabul and ride the next wave

George Walkey
Senior Geek in charge
http://www.insyncva.com

lionelhill (TechnicalUser)
27 Jan 05 12:40
I'm just a lowly technical user, but I sympathise. What really makes me want to give up on IT and take a nice lo-tech job is how things have changed since I first started playing with computers (back when you worked all summer to save up for a machine with 2K ram, and sophisticated games had rectangular bats that went "bleep")

Just as an example, lets take "help".

Stage 1: the program only did what it said it did, so you didn't need any help.

Stage 2: the program did quite a few things, and the help came in a book. You could read the book while you used the program.

Stage 3: the help was "on line", which meant that you had to open a little window, read the content, try to remember it, and then click somewhere, and the help disappeared behind what you wanted to work on, which looked subtly different to what it said in the help file (Usually the button you're supposed to click on was missing).

Stage 4: the help went context sensitive. Now there wasn't an index. In the context where you needed help, there wasn't any. But if you asked for help on the button marked "Exit" a neat little window popped up telling you "click on this button to exit". There were similar windows for "Save.." "Load" etc.

Stage 5: the help moved into a pdf file. Now it was either too small and fuzzy to read, or the lines were too long to fit on the screen all at once. Nearly always the page numbers in the index were different to the page numbers in the acrobat reader.

Stage 6: the help moved onto the internet. Theoretically this means its never out of date. Practically it means there's always a nice "Connection denied" screen to look at when you get fed up of cursing the application. And when the error you're fighting is that you can't make your internet connection work....

Computer technology is a beautiful, wonderful tool. Why is it so often misapplied?
BocaBurger (Vendor)
27 Jan 05 12:55
I used to work for US Robotics. I was at HQ for a series of meetings. One was about our new improved online support & help system. About 1/2 way into the speaker's features list I raised my hand and said "But the biggest problems user have is that they can't connect in the first place". There was dead silence. Speaker tried to continue, but then just went silent, walked off the stage. Plan was never implemented.

Since the regular help line was so busy, SE's were given a special 800 number to call, since it got embarassing to sit for an hour at a customer's site waiting for the support line to be answered by a person.

BocaBurger
<===========================||////////////////|0
The pen is mightier than the sword, but the sword hurts more!

Helpful Member!  arthurliz (TechnicalUser) (OP)
27 Jan 05 13:12
OK
After reading what has been posted so far I'll change the premise.........."All of us have done extremely well in IT world, but...." to
..........at some point we thought we were doing extremely well in the IT world as we were hauling in lots of moola very easily, but after a short time, it just became a drudge job when technology shifted or the bill payers woke up and stopped throwing money at us.

How's that for encapsulating the fact that we all got in, had fun, got paid well for it, and guess what, it ain't no fun anymore and does not pay any more.

Or to put it even another way....We appear to spend as much time solving real business / systems / software problems via self education / continuing research / consultation with our peers as medical researchers or corproate lawyers, yet we don't get anywhere near the money or satisfaction.
Onyxpurr (Programmer)
28 Jan 05 17:57
Ah, so that's the crux of it, huh? Not getting paid enough money?

Anyone and everyone would love to be paid more.  Quite frequently in this world, people ask, "why aren't I paid more?"

I'm not really sure why we're paid less now? Could it be that IT as a whole was overpaid to begin with? Just a question, not an assumption.

Anyway, regardless, I'm happy with what I'm being paid. Plus I have forgone better paying jobs because of the following:

1) I LOVE what I do.
2) Benefits are good
3) Boss is great
4) People are cool
5) close to work
6) did I mention I love what I do?
bytehd (IS/IT--Management)
28 Jan 05 22:37
give him a few years.......

George Walkey
Senior Geek in charge
http://www.insyncva.com

Helpful Member!  kHz (MIS)
29 Jan 05 10:59
I don't think you can equate the typical IT worker's daily activities to a medical researcher.  If you were talking about a computer science researcher, say, at IBM, then these are some of the areas they are working on:
    * Hippocratic Database (HDB) technology, which respects the privacy of data it manages. HDB is application and database agnostic technology that allows current business operations to proceed with minimal or no changes to existing systems, while ensuring that disclosure concerns (i.e. privacy policy, security policy, legislation, etc.) are not an issue. The technology is applicable to any industry with disclosure management concerns (e.g. Healthcare, Finance, Government, etc.). Currently, the technology set includes:
          o Active Enforcement - automates cell-level, policy-based disclosure management such that databases only return data that is consistent with company policies, applicable legislation, and customer preferences
          o Compliance Auditing - records all queries and changes to the database and uses this information to construct detailed audit trails that specify the user, recipient, purpose, time, and exact (cell-level) information disclosed for any particular database query
          o Sovereign Information Integration (formerly Secure Information Sharing and Sovereign Information Sharing) - allows two parties to share information about intersections between data sets without compromising the privacy or security of the remaining data
          o Privacy-preserving data mining - preserves privacy at the individual level, while still allowing accurate data mining models at the aggregate level.
          o Database Watermarking - allows one to deter data theft and assert ownership rights over pirated copies.
          o Order Preserving Encryption - enabling database systems to execute queries over encrypted data without incurring significant performance hit or unnecessary cryptographic calls and still being able ot utilize the existing database functionality
          o BA k-anonymity - enabling optimized data de-identification resistant to data linkage attacks
    * P3P implementation and preference language
    * Compression
    * Connected Home
    * Content Assurance
    * Distributed Systems Management
    * OptimalGrid: An Autonomic Grid Infrastructure
    * OSGI: Open Systems Gateway Initiative
    *  DBCache
    * Hippocratic Databases
    * SMART: Self Managing and Resource Tuning Databases
    * SOAP
    * XML Databases
    * Xperanto
(many others.  And this is just IBM.  Look at all the universities doing comp sci research, as well as other corporations)

These people are probably as well compensated as a "medical researcher or corporate lawyer."  But what they are doing is so far beyond a typical day-to-day IT worker.  Sure, there are some day-to-day workers, say, a software engineer who is designing a new satellite for a government intelligence agency or some new software for the military for advanced weapons, but again, these people are going to be well-compensated, and their pay is going to be above the typical worker.

What task have you done in the last month that isn't a commodity?
arthurliz (TechnicalUser) (OP)
31 Jan 05 2:48
Actually I do agree with kHz, and very little of what I do is a commodity.

The reason for starting this thread is that I keep running into IT professionals that took their skills and left IT and because they had the IT background.....did very well when they applied that IT background in another field such as trading equities, derivatives and futures, or working as an attorney, (took law courses in a night school) or a ceramic composite materials designer / inventor or even as a cancer researcher, yes the guy really exists..at a major university medical school.

In each and every place they are doing exactly what they did before (example wrtiing applications or database design), and  entirely from a technical point of view, but becasue they are on "the other side" and add that "other side" to the IT  somehow they become more immensely valuable to their employers and the very positive outcome for the former IT person is seen in measures of job satisfaction, money, and power plus position, etc.

In a very real way, what I'm trying to dig out is what I once saw from the vantage point of running a IT project I managed for one of the top North American Architecutre schools.. that a technical education, complete with the typical IT style consultative process is probably a pretty good foundation for accomplishment outside of IT, just like that architecture school found in its alumni pool roughly 20 years after they graduated and roughly 5 years after they left architecture.

But notice one thing, architecture schools are pretty technically and multidiciplinary (design, engineering, materials, writing, drawing, etc, places. For many IT professionals, they seem to stop learning or end up very narrowly learning a specific craft (example writing only in C++ or network design) and perhaps the difference is that you can get into IT without much formal education, especially when compared to architecture.

Thus it is possible that the professional that leaves IT for something else and "really makes it", is indeed a rarity.
mmorancbt (IS/IT--Management)
31 Jan 05 7:36
This is a personal soapbox and a great discussion.  I have maintained that building an IT based career does not have to occur in the IT department.

I am working for a client right now where I work in the financial reporting department.  One of their "Financial Analyst" actually does a variety of programming tasks on PCs and AS400s but is not in IT!...

He is extremely valuable to the department and is included in virtually all high-level meetings with management when new projects come up.  They need his technical input and his understanding of the financial reporting needs of the departments.

Were he in a strict IT role, the chances are his exposure to the variety and high-profile projects would be limited.

Look at my blog titled, "Career Transitions & The Entry Level Dilemma"
http://blogs.ittoolbox.com/pm/career/archives/001209.asp

It covers this idea a bit.  In 2001 I published an article titled, IT Doesn't Just Occur in IT - on the same premise.

Pure IT talent (technical) is a commodity of diminishing value.  The best compensated technologists (financial) are those that combine their technology talents with in-depth knowledge of the businesses they serve and then provide tools that greatly increase the ability for that business to operate.

Matthew Moran
http://www.cbtoolkit.com

chiph (Programmer)
31 Jan 05 17:52

Quote:

that a technical education, complete with the typical IT style consultative process is probably a pretty good foundation for accomplishment outside of IT

Any rigorous education prepares you for success in the real world.  It's why some of the best CEOs come from an engineering background.

Chip H.

____________________________________________________________________
Click here to learn Ways to help with Tsunami Relief
If you want to get the best response to a question, please read FAQ222-2244 first

specialist (Programmer)
1 Feb 05 14:46
reguardless of what you do, how many of you actually wake up in the morning and look forward to going to work? If not, can you envision yourself waking up each morning and going to a job (any job) you sincerely enjoy?

Thats the key right there. Doing what you enjoy. If you no longer enjoy it, find something you do like. I just happen to like doing web development and design. I did in the 90's and still enjoy it to this day. I feel blessed to be where I am even if I make very little $$. Living in seemingly the most expensive area in the US, it is tough when you cannot afford $ 400,000 for a 1 bedroom condo. But thats life. At least I'm here, and I'm happy. It could ALWAYS be much worse.

Count your blessings :)
-Mike

--"Playing Golf" is not a job... I checked already :)

BocaBurger (Vendor)
1 Feb 05 14:53
Well, since I work in support, and no one ever calls and says: "Everything is fine, I just wanted to call & say thank you." I have to be ready to take everything from mild disgruntlement to outright abuse.
If I can make a living teaching martial arts and Qigong, I am out of here. I am even trying some e-bay sales to suppliment my income. Anyone interested in a t-shirt with original, one of a kind Chinese calligraphy by a Shanghainese master?

BocaBurger
<===========================||////////////////|0
The pen is mightier than the sword, but the sword hurts more!

specialist (Programmer)
1 Feb 05 15:00
BocaBurger-

Everything is fine, I just wanted to call & say thank you


:)

-Mike

kHz (MIS)
1 Feb 05 16:03
You have to balance what you like with being able to earn a living.  You may like being a fine artist and creating Jackson Pollock-type paintings, but your chances of starving are very high.  Therefore I work in IT.

I would love to be a comic book illustrator or just an illustrator drawing in pencil.  I have drawn ever since I could hold a pencil, but the chances of eating ramen noodles for 3 squares a day is very high with that career path.  I was an art major for a time in college, but didn't think there was a good chance of employment so I changed to business.  Therefore I work in IT.

There is a possibility that I could do web design since I have an art background, but a lot of people do web design and I like to draw freehand which is not in demand even in web design.  Therefore I work in IT.
BocaBurger (Vendor)
2 Feb 05 7:19
Mike,

But you don't use my company's product :-(

BocaBurger
<===========================||////////////////|0
The pen is mightier than the sword, but the sword hurts more!

chiph (Programmer)
3 Feb 05 14:38

Quote:

There is a possibility that I could do web design since I have an art background, but a lot of people do web design and I like to draw freehand which is not in demand even in web design.  Therefore I work in IT.

kHz -
You could buy a graphics tablet:
http://www.wacom.com/tabletwizard/index.cfm

Chip H.

____________________________________________________________________
Click here to learn Ways to help with Tsunami Relief
If you want to get the best response to a question, please read FAQ222-2244 first

Helpful Member!  crystalized (Programmer)
3 Feb 05 17:37
If you want more reading on this topic I wrote a paper for a class I was taking and in the process found an interesting book

Jill Fraser, White-Collar Sweatshop: The Deterioration of Work and Its Rewards in Corporate America (New York:W.W. Norton and Co., 2001)

In particular there was portion of the book that mentioned that Employees entering the industry are burning out at a high rate, for example over 5, 15 and 20 years the number of programmers remaining in the profession drops from 60% to 34% to 19% respectively -- she compared that against engineers and while I don't remember the numbers exactly the drop out rate was significantly worse for programmers.

I thought this was interesting and think I am a very good example.  I have been a programmer and an IT trainer over the last 5 years and discovered I loved the training element.  I also love what I am studying right now - completely non-IT related - so my goal is to become a university professor some day.

So I will definitely be in the 5 year category!

Crystal
--------------------------------------------------

Experience is one thing you can't get for nothing.

 -Oscar Wilde

happymc100 (TechnicalUser)
4 Feb 05 5:32
All I can say ppl, is that with so many disatisfied IT pro's out there, means there is more chance of that good position for myself.

Take it from me, compared to the general public IT is a hell of a well paid career. If people chose to over extend themselves financially, then whatever job they do will never be enough money.

Call me a bright eyed newcommer to this field, but look at what we have access to compared to say. someone on £12-14000. I know where I prefer to be.

Tc and keep the faith.
crystalized (Programmer)
4 Feb 05 13:09
I know for me it is not dissatisfaction - I do not mind the work at all and I have been lucky to have been in mostly good environments.  I just simply can not see myself doing this for the rest of my career.  But there is no doubt in my mind that the technical skills I have developed will serve me extremely well in my next career(s).

How many other people leave IT not because of dissatisfaction but because they want something new and different?

Crystal
--------------------------------------------------

Experience is one thing you can't get for nothing.

 -Oscar Wilde

arthurliz (TechnicalUser) (OP)
5 Feb 05 16:34
Crystalized, the programmer actually makes a great point...."How many other people leave IT not because of dissatisfaction but because they want something new and different?"

I reply to it because once upon a time, I had a technical staff of roughly 100, and finally to deal with the typical IT employee rant of "I want more training, I want top projects, I want to run bigger projects, how come xxx gets all the bleeding edge projects, etc." I went to a book store and bought 100 copies of a do it youself aptitude test (out of my own pocket) and had each IT person self administer so they could try to start to figure themselves out.

Among the things I found from reviewing the aptitude test results was that The very outgoing types could just have easily been stock brokers, industrial salesman, etc.  A good term would be consultative selling in just about any complex profession, even the law.
The very technical types could function, or had the behavior set or aptittude for mastering complex technical tasks such as the law, engineering, and yes IT, but usuallly had minimal sales skills.
The great technical writers could have just as easily been academic reseachers in history or english.

What I found in the end, from five years of running that group was the the technical types tended to stay behind and get very frustrated as they hit the top of their value / pay range for straight technical skills, the outgoing types moved on sometimes in IT but sometimes into techncial sales and the writers, well they were a mixed lot, some left and some did not, the only possilbe difference was that the more outgoing were the ones who left.

In a very real sense this experience mirrored the long ago written managment science books (1950's) about the role and eveloution of a "middle manager" meaning that in the beginning a middle manager in something remote from IT, like marketing, first joins a company in a very technical role, such as managing the finance and accounting of a soap company's ad budget, then over a decade or so evolves into a mixed role of that techncial skill and interacting with staff and clients. Then by that person's early 40's they evolved into a manager of a division and sometimes high level client interaction, or they were out.

I've lived long enough to have seen that with law firms and large corporations, so my suspicion, is that successful IT people go though the same evolution, but they maks it via job hops. If they don't successfully evolve, they eventually quit IT

Or, thye decide to leave and take the best of IT with them, but if you looked at their aptitude test results you would find that they could have done a number of consultative careers from industrail sales man to broker to etc.
langleymass (MIS)
7 Feb 05 3:04
Matthew Moran--I have bought your book.

I have said quite a few times that "I would leave if I felt like I could." I am frustrated because I believe that my abilities and talents have been wasted. I am not even close to reaching my potential. It is easy to get "burned out" when you aren't getting out of it what you put into it. My dues are OVERPAID.

For the past three weeks, I have been taking an acting class. It has been great and will go on for seven more. I am paying $270 for ten weeks of instruction--3 to 3.5 hours each, 30-35 hours total. I have a great instructor who has worked with the Coen Brothers. He even told us that agents will be coming in.

It's not my ambition to be an actor. I just decided to take the class because I thought it might help me get my next job. I figure if I make it as an actor, I will have to live in either LA or NY (I don't want to). I also feel like success in showbiz is a lottery ticket.

Back in 1998, I took an A+ class. Instruction was terrible. I paid about $1500 for about 40 hours. There was no help in finding a job, and this was during the so-called "tech boom."

Two months ago, I never dreamed I would actually be thinking about acting as a career. Now I am. I am getting more nurturing and encouragement in this class than I have gotten in IT since the middle of 1999. I have more respect for the instructor in this class than for any IT supervisor I've had .

As I write this, I am also thinking about the Super Bowl and Corey Dillon. He was called a "malcontent" because he was always complaining about having to play for the Bengals. He didn't want to play for an organization that didn't care about winning and thought that he deserved better. Before the season, he got traded to the New England Patriots. The "bad attitude" disappeared. Now he has his Super Bowl ring and helped his team get that ring.

I've certainly played for plenty of teams like the Bengals. I wonder how many other IT pros feel the same way.
lionelhill (TechnicalUser)
7 Feb 05 9:17
Reading a lot of this, it seems to me that a major source of discontent is hitting the pay ceiling. And it's all the worse because of the way careers are structured.

Most places expect to promote people and increase their pay dramatically over the first few years. It's a good way to keep new employees happy, and tempt people to enter your business (at lower rates of pay than most of the people who are already there...). It's also fair, because at first the employee presumably doesn't know so much.

But obviously the faster you promote people at first, the sooner they're going to hit the point where you can't afford to promote them any more.

And anyway, is it fair that we should expect promotion and pay-rises throughout our careers? Surely most of us will have reached a point by the time we're 30 where any additional changes in our skill-set aren't expansions as such, just movements to keep us in line with current needs.

The grim truth is that in any career, most people are not going to progress upwards for ever. Suggesting otherwise is merely preparing discontent for the future. In IT the promises were (are?) bigger, so the disappointment's bigger too.
kHz (MIS)
7 Feb 05 11:03
I have complete disdain for my place of employment, not so much for the organization, but for the lack of management skills my manager possesses.  Along with his "pet" (my coworker).

We moved from AIX to Sun a while ago, and last summer before the migration, I brought up numerous areas that needed to be taken care of, which were ignored or forgotten or whatever.  (I should have taken a clue when I was hired, because in my first week I sent a number of suggestions and things that needed to be done to improve the then-current environment - like a disaster recovery method.  Then one day I heard my new manager and two new coworkers - across the hall - say, "did you see all those things he wants to do?"  "I'm not doing any of that."  That was one of my coworkers saying that to her and my boss, and he chuckles and says, "yeah.")  Now most of the things I mentioned months ago are coming back as problems because they weren't done!?! (imagine that).  

One of my coworkers (the non-evil one) and I were talking about taxes and social security, etc., one day, and the evil coworker goes to the boss and says we were talking about our salaries, and he in turn goes to his boss, who then takes us into his office to ask us about talking about our salaries.  She wasn't in the conversation, and doesn't know what is being said, yet being evil says that because she knows he likes her.  Yet, gee, one day on a friday afternoon a few months ago, she comes into my cube and says, "so are you going to get laid this weekend?"  Excuse me!  What concern is that of hers?  I never went to HR, which would have got her into deep trouble, yet she tells lies about us.  

The boss calls me one afternoon wanting to know why a prod server was down.  I explained to him, after looking, that it was rebooted.  He asked me why.  I explained it wasn't me and it could only be one of three others.  Him (he said he didn't) my other coworker (who was out that day), or the evil coworker (who it was).  Suddenly it was okay.  Everything was alright.  It didn't matter because the pet did it.

She is a manipulative, deceitful, two-faced, backstabbing, lying evil person.  Yet the boss loves her.  She can do whatever she wants.  It is ironic that she says mean things about our boss behind his back.  They think they are best buds, but I know it is only a possibly one-way street.

The nice coworker applied for a job as a lead on another team, but didn't say anything to the boss because if it didn't work out he didn't want him to know.  So evil coworker tells nice coworker that the boss is mad and is going to make his life miserable.  Apparently the boss told her this, and she just wanted to let him know (for his own good).  Whether that happened, I have no idea.  But he does talk to her about things he should not be discussing because he can get in trouble.  But hey, they are best buds.

She is evil.  He is incapable and ineffective.

This place is slowly killing me.
langleymass (MIS)
7 Feb 05 23:06
kHz,

You aren't the first person to deal with an "evil" co-worker. All you can do is get out and then tell them why at the exit interview. Nothing will be done.

MasterRacker (MIS)
8 Feb 05 8:48
I think I've worked with those people.  Your boss wouldn't happen to be bald with a pointy fringe of hair would he?

Jeff
It's never too early to begin preparing for
International Talk Like a Pirate Day

kHz (MIS)
8 Feb 05 10:43
And part of what is so ironic(?) is that she is and idiot.  The other day she said all the servers had to come down to change the password on (solaris) OBP.  My reply was "we don't have a password set on OBP."  She argued, "yes we do."  I replied, "no, we have a password on LOM."  So she challenges me and says, "we do have an OBP password set on the system controller."  Again I say "the sc is the lom."  Her:  "oh.  well the password command doesn't work.  I tried."  Me:  "did you use password?"  Her:  "yes. I typed passwd."  Me:  "no.  it's the word password."  Her:  "that's what I typed.  passwd."  Me:  "no. spell the word out.  P-A-S-S-W-O-R-D."  Her: "oh."

That and some of the suggestions I made in the past she hijacks and brings them up as her ideas that the {so-called) boss thinks is so great.  She has done that numerous times.  One time I found and corrected the problem with Oracle on Solaris when we first migrated, only to have the "boss" send an email to everyone claiming evil person figured it out and gave her the acknowledgement of fixing it.  This email went to a federal government agency we work for, and they were told that she did it.  My other coworker heard the conversation the boss had and saw the email too, giving her credit.

She also claims to be getting email notifications from SMC which I cannot find her getting any emails from SMC at all.  She makes false claims all the time.  Yesterday she told the nice coworker that she was using a certain script to do a task.  He tried it and it didn't work.  He had tried to modify the script and couldn't get it to work so asked me (which I then fixed it.)  He said "she claims to use it all the time but it doesn't work."  

She is a real piece of work.
langleymass (MIS)
8 Feb 05 12:10
kHz,

With regard to her question about you "getting laid," I recommend that you keep some type of tape recorder around. You could sue HER for sexual harassment. It might get her out of the company. But suing her would give you some satisfaction--would it not?

kHz (MIS)
8 Feb 05 12:36
Does anyone know the answer to this:

The boss has a calendar posted outside his door and if somebody is late (even though there is flex time he tries to enforce factory line hours) he writes it on there for that day that so-and-so was late.  If employee X has a dentist appt. or doctor's appt. he writes it on the calendar.  If someone is sick he writes they were sick on the calendar.  He does the same for vacations.  Vacation doesn't bother me but the sick/appt's seems intrusive.  (plus he doesn't write anything down for the pet though, she seems exempt from this.)

Somehow this strikes me as not completely legal, but I am not a labor attorney.

PS: I would need something recorded because she has said things before and when someone asks her she claims she never said such-and-such.  That happened with the pager rotation time period.  She wanted it set for X weeks and later she wanted it N weeks.  When the boss, coworker and me said that she originally said X weeks, she claimed she never said that, even though all three of us said she did.  She finally said, "ok, if you said I did.  Though I know I didn't."
SQLSister (Programmer)
8 Feb 05 14:39
kHz, this has all the symptoms of a person who is sleeping with the boss. Be very careful around her and document everything. You  may need it in a court case later.

Check with HR on the diplaying your sick time on a calendar in public. As a manager he has an obligation to the company to track it, but I don't believe he should be displaying the information for others to see.  Also point out that one employee seems to be exempt from this if you want to be evil about it. Make sure to ask for confidentiality on the issue with the HR person before you ask them about it.

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langleymass (MIS)
8 Feb 05 18:48
kHz,

Get out of there. Incompetent managers generally don't get punished.



johnherman (MIS)
9 Feb 05 9:44
A word about the "sexual harrassment" aspect. Having had training in this area (how to prevent it, not how to do it), it is generally recognized that sexual harrassment does not exist until one worker indicates to another (or to the boss, or to HR) that the he/she finds aspects of the behavior of the other to be offensive. So, until you document that you are offended about being asked about your sexual plans for the weekend, that conversation is fair game.

A famous story involves a guy who had a 3x5 framed photo of his wife in a bikini sitting on his desk (which had been taken on a recent vacation). A coworker saw the photo and told HR that she felt is was sexual harrassment and the guy had to remove his wife's photo.

-------------------------
The trouble with doing something right the first time is that noboby appreciates how difficult it was.
- Steven Wright

lionelhill (TechnicalUser)
9 Feb 05 11:33
No, there is something very wrong about that way of thinking.

(1) Some acts are so obviously wrong that you do not have to have the disapproval of the victim for them to qualify as harrassment. In my culture (UK), if you slap a coworker's bottom, they don't have to tell you they disapprove for it to be a (very) serious matter. A boss would be right to discipline a staff-member who did this, even if the person on the receiving end prefered to ignore it rather than stirr up office discontent. Societies have certain standards that we have to follow irrespective of victim's opt-out (extreme example: German court's attitude to willing-victim canibalism).
There is no defence in saying "but she didn't try to stop me!" because she may not have had the chance. You can't even say "it's OK because the boss does it". If an employee chooses not to complain about grossly inappropriate behaviour from one person, whatever the reason, that doesn't give everyone else the right to join in.  

(2) Some other acts are so clearly right that no matter how offended one particular individual is, no harrassment offence has actually taken place. Say the wife-picture is a knee-length skirt? I'm sure there are plenty of people who'd consider that outrageously provocative. But I can't see a UK personnel department getting terribly upset about it. Encountering a culture-clash isn't automatically harrassment (or shouldn't be).

(3) I think what you mean is that there is a large grey area where something may or may not be offensive depending on the victim - and in those instances, the victim's opinion is what counts. But equally, until the victim has voiced an opinion and the offender has ignored it, you can't accuse the offender of much worse than poor sensitivity. It's down to your local social traditions whether it's OK to ask about plans for the weekend like that...
johnherman (MIS)
10 Feb 05 10:05
Let me repreface my remarks with "According to the US Government definition of sexual harassment".....since lionellhill is correct regarding other cultures and, like the American I am, I wrongly assumed an American workplace culture.

You are correct that some offenses, sexual assault, indecent exposure, offensive touching, etc, do not require "warnings" due to governmental laws or company personnel policies.

However, it is acceptable, for instance, for co-workers to hug each other, but if a third party is offended and brings that incident up to the attention of either or both of the huggers, to HR, or otherwise through channels, the huggers can no longer hug. Same held for greetings which include kisses, etc. Same argument holds for borderline sexual innuendo and humor and office pictures and calendars such as the wife in the bikini or Miss February.

I wonder if an Islamic worker could claim sexual harassment from all pictures of women who did not have face veils. Or even wearing them to work.  Hmmmmm. The way American courts have been ruling, it wouldn't surprise me.

-------------------------
The trouble with doing something right the first time is that noboby appreciates how difficult it was.
- Steven Wright

chiph (Programmer)
10 Feb 05 22:10
In the immortal words of the Pythons:

http://arago4.tn.utwente.nl/stonedead/movies/holy-grail/ra/21-08.ra

Chip H.

____________________________________________________________________
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vitaminD12 (Programmer)
15 Feb 05 20:53
hey you all.........
great reading at "exiting the IT environment"!
specialist wrote on Feb 01, 2005
"...regardless of what you do, how many of you actually wake up in the morning and look forward to going to work? ..."
and then
"....If not, can you envision yourself waking up each morning and going to a job (any job) you sincerely enjoy?.."
I actually do - I work 2 jobs (IT and retail) - and I look forward to both of them!
I don't think that the main problem for most of us is to exit something and/or enter something else with better pay, benefits etc. I think that the cause of misery is not where you are in your life. It is the other way around: you are miserable and this is why you are where you are. Moving anywhere is not gonna save you from being miserable. You gotta find resources within, stomp that misery out and make yourself happy – a lot of good things (but maybe not everything else) will follow. I sincerely laugh when people tell me about incompetent bosses, stupid renovations, waist of resources etc. It is such a great source of entertaining - forget your TV. I’m quite young though  - need a decade or so to become a pessimist……….
alexhu (MIS)
16 Feb 05 4:17

Quote:

need a decade or so to become a pessimist……….

You do........ and you will

Alex
Skittle (ISP)
16 Feb 05 10:05
I have had to put up with an exil co-worker for quite a while with a similar boss.

Unless there is ever anything you can really prove, the only option is to take the hammering, let them continue their games and look for another job.  

My experience has also been that by letting them do this sort of thing, others also start to see whats going on.  The calander issue is a prime example. Others will wonder why only one member of the dpt is not included.  Over a period of time I've found that without me saying a word, people throughout the company have wise up.

Dazed and confused

lionelhill (TechnicalUser)
18 Feb 05 9:29
<offtopic=hugely!>
Thanks, Johnhermann, for the clarification and not being offended by my rather definitely-worded ethical rant! Law and ethics are always two different things; I personally think we members of the public should use our tiny, tiny influence to push for laws are sensible and serve us well, reflecting our ethical needs, rather than laws that are well-meant but become daft obstacles to leading a normal life.

The really scary thing, (very personal view) is when non-lawyers such as personel departments (or worse, trainers) decide to become hobby-lawyers, forcing ideas on us that are contrary to the spirit of the original law. There's often a tendancy to do this to prove they know their stuff...

But real lawyers argue about things before making a judgment, whereas if a personel department decides your wife's photograph is offensive, there's often no discussion, no defence, no court of appeal, just their illogical decision. You can accept it or leave. If you leave (and is it worth it for a photo?) you face being unofficially black-listed by future employers as a trouble-maker.
langleymass (MIS)
28 Feb 05 2:22
I got this from an e-mail group. I found it interesting:

"My take on this, having just left my IT/IS job of 9.5 years, is that there has been an influx of technically-compromised, politically-driven people into tech in the last couple of years. So what USED to be a haven for practical, logical, non-political (in office terms), fact- and skill-oriented people has become the same kind of annoying manipulation-ridden morass as the rest of corporate America."

What does everyone think?
bytehd (IS/IT--Management)
28 Feb 05 8:06
""My take on this, having just left my IT/IS job of 9.5 years, is that there has been an influx of technically-compromised, politically-driven people into tech in the last couple of years. So what USED to be a haven for practical, logical, non-political (in office terms), fact- and skill-oriented people has become the same kind of annoying manipulation-ridden morass as the rest of corporate America."

Seems that way to me.
Or more often, MBAs thinking IT "is just another department"
we can mess up...er control.

George Walkey
Senior Geek in charge
http://www.insyncva.com

jwenting (Programmer)
3 Mar 05 10:17
IT isn't immune from office politics. What changed things was when IT moved out from the mom and pop shops and the university labs and into the corporate world with large departments and deadlines.

IT IS just another department from a business perspective. While we may love to have a pool billiard in the office (and during the .com boom we sometimes had one) if it doesn't increase the profit margin of the company it won't get funded.
kHz (MIS)
3 Mar 05 14:35
The problem is that for most businesses, IT is and expense.  IT departments do no create revenue, and too many fail to use the methods that are available to them to decrease costs for the company.  Server consolidation can save a company money, as well as capacity planning.  But unfortunately, businesses do not use those methods to cut costs.  
langleymass (MIS)
4 Mar 05 12:35
I never had a need for a pool table or a pinball machine. I didn't think it was my employer's duty to provide one.

I know that I don't bring in revenue from outside sources. But I save the company more than I cost because I support technologies that sometimes replace people or free them up to do other things. It's an old cliche, but TIME IS MONEY.

How much does snail-mail cost? How much does e-mail cost? How long does it take to send e-mail and snail-mail?

Based on that, we technical professionals are probably more valuable than anyone in a company. And we do work that most people either can't do or don't even want to try to do.

I also feel like I am making an important difference in the world. Computers and the Internet are giving people access to more information than they ever thought possible 20 years ago.

Our task is to make other people understand this, instead of allowing them to sweep us under the rug.
mmorancbt (IS/IT--Management)
4 Mar 05 15:22
Langleymass,

First, I hope you enjoy the book!!  

Good observation above.  The role of a good technology pro is to discover areas where technology can perform one of its two roles (get ready for a broadbrushed and far-reaching statement). Yes, I believe useful technology is built for two purposes (in a business context).

1) The Storage and Retrieval of information for analysis and decision support.  File storage, database storage, etc.  Retrieval, application performance, reporting, information distribution/report distribution.

2) The Automation of the Delivery of a product or service.  Manufacturing robotics, automated report generation, the memo that the secretary created, web services to deliver customer response/customer support, etc.

If you can make these things happen effectively for an organization, you will be valuable.  Of course, that does not mean that a given organization will see it as valuable.  That is the other-side of career development.

Your value is only as valuable as the value organization you serve places on your applied skillset.  In case the subtle hint was lost in that last sentence, I place a premium on value.

And now I have to get back to providing value for one of my clients.  I am building a series of automated report distribution applications.  In this case, I am helping retrieve information from their database for analysis and decision support and automating reports that were previously created off of printed sheets and manually distributed.

Later,

Matthew Moran
http://www.cbtoolkit.com

langleymass (MIS)
5 Mar 05 9:06
Well, Matthew,

That's why I am learning neuro-linguistic programming and taking acting lessons. My brain can't help if nobody is going to see it. It's all about what they see.

Castor66 (IS/IT--Management)
5 Mar 05 11:04
Notes from a Depressed 39 year old Sys Admin!

If you think you have it bad then how about having a department meeting yesterday and hearing the statement that "All IT have to do this year is survive"! We are not going to develop anything new, change anything unless it breaks and, basically, sit here on our butts waiting for something to break. They really know how to motivate us.

I've been around the block in IT since leaving University in '89 and I find myself becoming increasingly disillusioned with the REMF's in this business. They just don't seem to have a clue. Last year I worked for a large company (1000's of staff worldwide - leader in their field) and they had the stupidest middle management tier ever. They didn't understand what they had and where they were going with technology. Their tunrover was just approaching 1Billion UKP. Just before I left they announced they wouldn't be paying a bonus because we only hit 99.875% of target! Why couldn't they just lie and say we only got to 90%!!!!

I left them to come here because it looked small, dynamic and I would have an input into the process. The pay is good and the company has turnover of about 100Million UKP which is very good for only 50 staff! Then I find that they have no strategy for eveloping the business further. They have just stopped moving forward. They have no ambition and we are in the most dynamic of e-businesses currently. How lame can you get?

I'm thinking of moving away somewhere else. I'm not qualified to do anything but IT which I am particularly good at. I love working with computers and that, and the pay, is what makes me get out of bed each day. What makes me want to stay in bed is the attitude of the REMFs!

I think I'll just leave the country and work in IT somewhere else - maybe a different management would be better.
GlenJohnson (MIS)
5 Mar 05 15:11
Great post.  Here's a real life story.  50 years old, left IT after almost 20 years.  Still have my own consulting business, but for a career, I now work retail.  Who looks forward to going to work?  ME!  I got fed up with the politics and idiots.  My old boss was a specialist in Novell, didn' know anything about the MS products.  Saw people losing there jobs to people who used brain dumps to get worthless peices of paper with no knowledge and making more  money.  Employers mostly don't have a clue as to what a brain dump is, or what questions to ask to find out if someone is qualified.  I'm working in IT on a daily basis, but it's because I want to, not have to, plus I'm making a good living working for one of the worlds largest retailer with great benifits.  Down with IT, long live IT.

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Glen A. Johnson
"An investment in knowledge always pays the best interest."
Benjamin Franklin

jwenting (Programmer)
8 Mar 05 9:42

Quote:

The problem is that for most businesses, IT is and expense.  IT departments do no create revenue, and too many fail to use the methods that are available to them to decrease costs for the company

Depends on how you look at it I guess. While indeed IT departments don't generally create direct revenue they enable other departments to generate more revenue than those departments would otherwise.
Think of an investment bank as an extreme example. Without computers they could handly only a tiny fraction of the transactions and not keep track of market trends with anything approaching the speed and accuracy that they do. Revenue (and thus profit) would collapse.
The same is true in many other businesses.
Some companies try to make that indirect revenue stream visible, most do not.

And yes, I've been in IT projects that got killed for not making a profit which were always understood to be such enabling technologies (like a website which helps potential customers to find the corporate offices in their countries for contacting sales staff and consultants).
BocaBurger (Vendor)
8 Mar 05 10:09
Exactly, so the potential customers didn't find the sales office and no sales were made. So who gets the blame?

BocaBurger
<===========================||////////////////|0
The pen is mightier than the sword, but the sword hurts more!

lionelhill (TechnicalUser)
8 Mar 05 12:17
Makes you realise just how inovative and daring Lyons were when they introduced electronic computing into their payroll system (yup, when electronic meant valves).
Sympology (MIS)
9 Mar 05 12:47
Here's my suggestions for jobs that we are qualified.

Police Office - Everyone moans and abuses them, until it's you that need's them.

Social Worker - Stupid hours, high stress and no thanks

Councilor - You have to listen to everyones else's problems, but no one cares about yours.

Cleaner - used to clearing up other people s***

Others,but unsure if they qualify as jobs.
Human Doormat, punchbag and scapegoat.

Rant over.....
Stu..






Only the truly stupid believe they know everything.
Stu.. 2004

BocaBurger (Vendor)
10 Mar 05 12:57
Gee, working in tech support seems to indicate perfect qualifications for all the above :-(



BocaBurger
<===========================||////////////////|0
The pen is mightier than the sword, but the sword hurts more!

onoski (MIS)
11 Mar 05 11:12
So Khz, how is things with you and the evil co-worker now? Just curious as there'd always be someone like this in any work place due to their own shortcomings.
kHz (MIS)
11 Mar 05 12:41
She quit.  But things are not any better because she was only half the problem.  The manager still exists.  Hopefully the economy is improving enough that it will only persist 1-3 more months!
kHz (MIS)
11 Mar 05 12:56
And get this.  I would like to hear your opinions.

A couple of days ago the manager (said loosely) calls me into his office and tells me that she quit because of me.  My reply was, "she was mad and was going to quit after I started and I was only here a couple of months.  So she must have been mad for that entire time and that couldn't have been due to me."

He said, "well she had a problem with another guy that was here before you too."

I told him that she was my coworker that she wasn't my boss.  And I told him that I didn't appreciate the way he treated his other employees, that she seemed to be the only one who mattered to him and that he was concerned about.  He said "she ran roughshod over me many times too.  I couldn't control her.  Sometimes she would do things and say things that were wrong but it was over before I could do anything about it."

Since there are approx 60 Solaris servers plus over 40 RS/6000 servers and there isn't any division of servers and workload, I told him it would be a good idea to divide up who has which servers so there wouldn't be any duplication of work.  He said he was working on it, but if he goes that route then the on-call rotation wouldn't matter anymore because whomever will always be on-call.  I asked him why?  Other places I have worked had a pager rotation and even though other servers were not mine, we were not repsonsible for the apps only the server OS and hardware.  If there was a problem that somebody didn't know or couldn't figure out, they would call another team member.  Apparently this isn't going to work for him.  If I get servers 1-20 then he will distribute a phone list and if there is a problem with these servers, then I will get a call, not the on-call admin.

This is absurd.  This entire fiasco has been too much.  When I was at the doctor a week ago, my blood pressure has risen.  Given it is still in the normal range, but it was a significant increase.  I credit it to this place.

Thanks for listening.
MasterRacker (MIS)
11 Mar 05 13:23
kHz, Don't let it kill you - it's just a job.  Unfortunately we all have to have one.  

Jeff
It's never too early to begin preparing for
International Talk Like a Pirate Day

AppStaff (Programmer)
31 Mar 05 16:53
BocaBurger did you work at USR between 1990 and 1995? I worked there during that time.
langleymass (MIS)
31 Mar 05 23:40
No job is worth sacrificing your mental health. I stayed with a terrible company much too long back in 2000 and 2001.
BocaBurger (Vendor)
1 Apr 05 8:28
I worked for USR, but not at the HQ. I was a remote access (worked out of my apt.) SE with my territory being S. Florida. I was in the "Tean Access" group. I worked until the day after 3COM bought USR and let go 1500 people, including me.

BTW, USR has just signed a contract with the Gov't's of India and China, to provide a modem for Internet access to every home in both countries. With the cash from this sale USR will be purchasing IBM and Oracle.









Please check the date of this post.



BocaBurger
<===========================||////////////////|0
The pen is mightier than the sword, but the sword hurts more!

AppStaff (Programmer)
5 Apr 05 14:45
haha! got quite a chuckle from that response boca.
I left about a year or so before the merger.  I have an instinct for that type of thing I guess... like a rat deserting a sinking ship I assume. I was in the engineering services group so we probably had no contact.:)
beanbrain (Programmer)
5 Apr 05 19:45
I don't "have" to have a job.  But I do like to eat.
trc (MIS)
6 Apr 05 14:29
I am a web developer and there is some debate as to the quality of my work. ? The thing that blows mw away is that there are kids coming out of high school that are trained on the same software that I use and will work for half of what I do. The competition is tough in the IT industry these days especially in the web development area.

It is strange, in my experience there are people that are good at their job in IT and there are others that are not good at their IT job. Common sense would suggest that the weak would get weeded out. This is not the case. I have seen the good marginalized and the bad favored and promoted. I guess in part it depends on how you play the game.

I think the promise of fame and fortune for being in IT disappeared with the fizzle of the .com fervor. The hope of achieving fame and fortune has as well faded since and now jobs in IT are merely that, jobs.

The problem now is that there seems to be the lingering expectation of the IT industry and IT people that miracles can be done and done in unrealistic terms. To bring these terms back down to something that is realistic is at times risky and others a battle. For the most part though I think it is working itself out and will just be a matter of time until it all levels out.

In short I think the IT industry is maturing. Now the trick is the same as in every other industry, to find a way to make your fame and fortune. How to do that is easy? Easy, just find a great idea, find the right people to make it happen, find the money to get those people and keep them for the needed time and then hold your tongue just right because it really does not matter what product you have or how good it does what it is designed to do, sometimes people just will not buy it.

I am personally tired of working my ass off for less money then I want and thought that I could find in the IT industry. I have a plan for my future and part of that plan includes software. Thank god I can build it.

************
My purpose in life is to show others what not to do.
<!--Caution, dates on calendar are closer then they appear.-->

BocaBurger (Vendor)
6 Apr 05 15:38
There are always those who will work for less. In S. Florida, a few years ago when Novell was a mover & shaker, a CNE would get $75.00 to $125.00 per hour (US average), but you could hire as many CNEs for $35.00 to $45.00 here. My job was cleaning up the messes they left their customers in.

BocaBurger
<===========================||////////////////|0
The pen is mightier than the sword, but the sword hurts more!

beanbrain (Programmer)
6 Apr 05 21:38
I'm not sure I can relate to "all" this talk of IT people burning out after three or so years.  I personally, have been in this field or over twenty years.

I can't say that management expectations are any better or worse than they have ever been.  These expectations (good or bad) just go with the IT territory.  Most often they are the result of naive thinking in regards to computing technology.

Unrealistic expectations generally fall into the category of customers wanting something that was not in the original proposal / project plan.  If the expectation is reasonable I can generally find a way to work the new spec. into the project.  If not I tell the customer that this is an item for "Phase II."

PhaseII often never comes about.  Part of the problem, I think, is that the requestor has no idea what computers and efficiently written software is capable of.  They will often decide that the application needs something that is already being handled, just in a way different than the manager supposes it should be handled.

What annoys me most this last two years is that due to the dot com bubble burst and 9/11/2001 the job market pretty much dried up.  In order to stay employed I had to change jobs and take an automatic 30K per year pay cut.

I'm pretty sure this is temporary, but I also worry about about overseas outsourcing.

I too have dreams of starting a business that can eventually be sold to some mega-conglomerate who will pay "too much" for my humble work.  But these days I don't just limit those dreams to software. I have a lot of ideas, primarily in finding alternate uses for existing technology.  What I need is a financial baker.  Any takers?

With all of the above though, this is STILL the best country in which to start a business and live the dream.

alexhu (MIS)
7 Apr 05 5:16

Quote (beanbrain):

With all of the above though, this is STILL the best country in which to start a business and live the dream

And which country would that be then ?

Alex
BocaBurger (Vendor)
7 Apr 05 8:21
China, from what my in-laws tell me. Housing prices in Beijing & Shanghai are higher than in South Florida.

BocaBurger
<===========================||////////////////|0
The pen is mightier than the sword, but the sword hurts more!

beanbrain (Programmer)
7 Apr 05 16:29
AlexHu:

The United States of America of course.
reliancetech (TechnicalUser)
8 Apr 05 8:33
Well but if you guys look at positive part of it that IT has at least given us job. It may not make you too rich, but when you look at other contries .. like south east asia ... IT gave employement and that is important. What is happening in middle east is terrerisum is only becouse no jobs no food.

And about getting rich well i thought worlds riches person is bill gates and he earn with the help of IT.
BocaBurger (Vendor)
8 Apr 05 8:57
No, he got rich with the help of lawyers.

Today's first support e-mail: My developers would like to upgrade to the latest 7.5.1 version of your software to take advantage of all the new features. Can we continue to use the 3 year old discontinued Runtime environment?

BocaBurger
<===========================||////////////////|0
The pen is mightier than the sword, but the sword hurts more!

beanbrain (Programmer)
8 Apr 05 13:27
BocaB:

Quote:


No, he got rich with the help of lawyers.

Today's first support e-mail: My developers would like to upgrade to the latest 7.5.1 version of your software to take advantage of all the new features. Can we continue to use the 3 year old discontinued Runtime environment?

Lawyers, marketing, and "borrowing ideas" from other better software houses.  Of course doing the later two requires the services of number one.

Looks like your first support email will be a simple one.  "No" comes to mind.
reliancetech (TechnicalUser)
9 Apr 05 8:08
ok well you guys have responded on only one line from my post. The main objective of the post that IT have given jobs to number of peoples. And avarage IT proffetionals are making more money that avarage Machenical engineer / electrical engineer / account / HRC etc.

Atleast in south east asia. And I am happy that i am in IT.
chiph (Programmer)
10 Apr 05 21:08

Quote:

And avarage IT proffetionals are making more money that avarage Machenical engineer / electrical engineer / account / HRC etc.
Not in the US.  Recent Engineer graduates have a better starting salary than Computer Science graduates by around $12000/yr.  

I don't know what happens after 10-15 years, but I suspect that the best CompSci people would be making the same as an average Engineer (just a guess).  The average CompSci people are probably still about $12000 behind the Engineers.

Chip H.

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reliancetech (TechnicalUser)
11 Apr 05 3:01
In India only Managment students ( MBA ) gets more starting salary than IT professionals.

Most of the other engineering graduates are also diverting towards IT. But this is all becouse that many jobs available in India for IT.
The recent survey says "In Six years india produce number of engineers = Population of Austrelia"
BocaBurger (Vendor)
11 Apr 05 8:30
What is should read is that they will produce the number of perople with engineering degrees, qualified or not. I have to work with so many outsourced IT people from India that should be allowed to touch a mouse. I have several Indian co-workers, ang you should here the conversations when thye have to deal with this paper "engineers." I wish I understood what they were saying .

The conversations start in English, but as our engineer gets more and more frustrated, he starts using Hindi or Urdu and the pitch gets higher.

BocaBurger
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The pen is mightier than the sword, but the sword hurts more!

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