INTELLIGENT WORK FORUMS
FOR COMPUTER PROFESSIONALS

Log In

Come Join Us!

Are you a
Computer / IT professional?
Join Tek-Tips Forums!
  • Talk With Other Members
  • Be Notified Of Responses
    To Your Posts
  • Keyword Search
  • One-Click Access To Your
    Favorite Forums
  • Automated Signatures
    On Your Posts
  • Best Of All, It's Free!

*Tek-Tips's functionality depends on members receiving e-mail. By joining you are opting in to receive e-mail.

Posting Guidelines

Promoting, selling, recruiting, coursework and thesis posting is forbidden.

Jobs

Peer-to-Peer mixed Win2000/95 c Netbui and TCP/IP

Peer-to-Peer mixed Win2000/95 c Netbui and TCP/IP

2
(OP)
Hi Guys,

Im currently working on a peer-to-peer network with 20+ workstations,most running Win95/98 but introducing Win2000 workstations now. Have setup a new PC with Win2000 running Netbui and TCP/IP (with static IP address).

After a lot of fiddling, can sometimes see some PCs, then all PCs..very variable. When I can see them cant map to their shared folders. To me seems to be too many PCs running netbui and prob broadcast storms..

Any clues to what the issues and how to fix...

Thanks

RE: Peer-to-Peer mixed Win2000/95 c Netbui and TCP/IP

Jepp, I have the same problem. I'm using a twisted pair cable and try to connect two PC's. I have not yet been able to see both machines at the same time with shared folders. Someone told me that the NetBEUI is not realible. TCP/IP should be the preferred protocol, BUT if you are using a Gateway with the TCP/IP you cant use the protocol.

RE: Peer-to-Peer mixed Win2000/95 c Netbui and TCP/IP

OK.  Here's a related question with even more of a twist:

At work we have a peer-to-peer network with NT2000, Win98 and Linux PCs running SAMBA.

The NT2000 PCs are running TCP/IP and can see all the PCs on the network, including the Linux PCs.

The Win98 PCs which are normally running TCP/IP cannot see any of the other PCs.  However, if we install NETBEUI on the Win98 PCs then they can see the other Win98 and NT2000 PCs but not the Linux PCs.

1)  Any ideas on why NETBEUI suddenly allows the other Windows-based PCs to become visible on the network?

2)  Any ideas on why the Linux PCs are not visible to the Win98 PCs whether or not they are running TCP/IP or NETBEUI?

Thanks in advance for any help.  This is definitely a strange one to me...

RE: Peer-to-Peer mixed Win2000/95 c Netbui and TCP/IP

I suspect there is something wrong with the setting of TCP-IP on the Win 98 computers. That would explain why they can't see the other computers until you install netbeui (at which point they can use netbeui to see them) and why they can't see the linux boxes at all (they don't use netbeui).
I can't tell for sure what would be wrong with the TCP-IP settings, but make sure they are on the same subnet as the win 2000 pcs. For example, in our office, every pc has an address of 192.168.1.x. Any pc with an address of 192.168.2.x couldn't see the other pcs.

RE: Peer-to-Peer mixed Win2000/95 c Netbui and TCP/IP

I am experiencing similar problem with no apparent solution.  Had a nice little LAN working perfectly with 1 95, 2 98 Sec.Ed., and 1 ME.

Went to add an XP Pro and had problems at first with the XP Pro seeing any of the others.  The manufacturer recommended we add the NETBeui protocol to all the systems.

This made the XP able to see and share, but everyone else is intermittant at best. This is with my having made the TCP/IP the default protocol on the 98's and ME.

We are also having difficulties with our Internet which is a shared DSL through a central modem and router.

RE: Peer-to-Peer mixed Win2000/95 c Netbui and TCP/IP

I am having similar issues.

Original setup:
1: simple NAT gateway/DHCP/file server running win95 with tcp/ip+netbeu
2:, 3:, 4: Three 95 workstations (tcpip)

Changed to:
1: simple NAT gateway/DHCP/file server running win95 with tcp/ip
2: win2000
3:, 4: Two win95 workstations (tcp/ip)

Symptoms:
1: can see only itself
1: can only connect to 3: and 4: (via ip not host)
1: cant connect to, and refuses to ackknowlege 2: except via ping or non file sharing services
2: can see 3: and 4: and connect
3:, 4: can see 2: and connect
2: can connect to 1: (via IP) for file sharing and gateway

As far as i can see if you connect a win2000 machine to a network with a win95 machine with two interfaces, or acting as any sort of gateway, it appears to block all communication FROM that win95 machine, it will however happily conenct TO and through that machine.

The only main difference between 1: and 3:,4: is 3:/4: are running IE 5.5. and 1: has the original IE version 3.

Perhaps intentional by Microsoft? To force us to upgrade our 95 machines? or some programmer oversight?
Anyone got any better info or ways around it?

RE: Peer-to-Peer mixed Win2000/95 c Netbui and TCP/IP

In a simple peer-to-peer network, one computer acts as the Master Browser.  This keeps the information on which computers are currently on the network.  This info is updated at regular intervals, so is not always correct.  
As well, if the computer that has been designated as the Master Browser is offline, then an election is held to see which other system will take over the role. To solve the problem of appearing/non-appearing system requires a registry hack to ensure that any system does not vye for the coveted Master Browser status. Otherwise, to solve the problem, shut down all machines, restart one by one. And keep them running...

Grant

RE: Peer-to-Peer mixed Win2000/95 c Netbui and TCP/IP

1st thing...

netbeui takes control over tcp/ip which is why if you have this is kinda defeats the purpose of TCP/IP also in the thread 4 above (cheifs)it said that the TCP/IP is inccorrect.. this is not true.. as the win2000 boxes could see the win98 boxes BEFORE the win98 went to Netbeui which means there is communication happening... you will find that there is communication between most machines..if you want to test this.. go to the command prompt and do a ping... do NOT rely on netwok explorer and such things..

i.e in the command promt

ping 192.168.1.24

if this brings back a response then there is connectiveity

the problem is elsewhere..

an inherrent problem with win98 is sometimes it will not show up on the netwrok if it has no known shares.. so on the win98 and like boxes.. try sharing a folder...

also please dont just double click on the network neighbourhood icon on the desktop.. it sends a broadcast message out to all machines on the netwrok and it will take you forever... just explore the network beighbourhood.. it is much faster and more reliable.. as to SAMBA.. I am not as familiar..

wish you all the best wit your networks..


Paladain...

teacher / learner / friend

RE: Peer-to-Peer mixed Win2000/95 c Netbui and TCP/IP

Hi itech
Could you explain the registry hack?
That would be great.

Ta
DAzz

RE: Peer-to-Peer mixed Win2000/95 c Netbui and TCP/IP

Hai,
we are developing a full automatic selfscan machine.
In order to enable us to connect to a cashregister, we need to build a bridge between NetBeui and TCP/IP!!
Did anyone of you done this before??
Can you supply us with help and/or related software to solve this problem?

RE: Peer-to-Peer mixed Win2000/95 c Netbui and TCP/IP

If I understand you correctly...

You do not have to bridge anything. Install TCP/IP, enable Netbios over TCP/IP, and install Netbui.  All machines should stay on the same subnet.

There is nothing that Netbui does that could not be done just as well with just Netbios over TCP/IP.  Having said that, you can have multiple protocols bound to the adapter at the same time.

RE: Peer-to-Peer mixed Win2000/95 c Netbui and TCP/IP

I am having a very simliar problem.

We have 4 machines that are running windows 2000 prof.  It is able to communicate to each with no problems.  I am try to add a 5th machine(windows 2000 server) to the work group.  On the 5th machine, I can see all the rest of machines but when I try to access the share I get the error: network path not found.

All 4 machines are running DHCP client, but I think they are communicating through NetBUEI.  All 4 machines are connected to a hub to get to the internet through a DSL line.  

I am not sure what else to do.

When I am on the server (5th machine), I can ping 127.0.0.1 (loop back), I can ping myself but I am not able to ping anyother machine in the work group?

Can someone direct me to the right path?  I am fairly new to the networking environment... Anyhelp would be greatly appreciated.

RE: Peer-to-Peer mixed Win2000/95 c Netbui and TCP/IP

Hi guys,
let me refer to the first 3 messages in this thread.
and some basic rules for the start.
1) NetBeui is very reliable! But it only works in a non-routed envoronment.
2) Better use TCP/IP, required for routed envoronments.
3) Avoid running TCP/IP and NetBEUI on the same machine. It increases load on the PC and on the network.
4) "Being able to "see" a machine I assume you mean see it in the NetWork Neighborhood. This is Microsoft Browsing. For in depth information, please read Microsoft Technet Online.
5) If you don't "see" a machine that is up, you may still be able to connject to the machine. Use \\'machinename' under the Start - Run.

A) "Seeing Machines" in Net Neighborhood
Using TCP/IP with Win98 machines: Enter the Domain (Workgroup) Name of the NT/2000 machines as the Workgroup name in the Network Settings of your Win98 machine. Then you will see the NT machines directly in the Net Neighborhood. If the Win98 machines are across a router, the enable one of the machines to become Master Browser.

B) Connecting to Machines
You need the same Transport protocol installed, when you try to see the shares of e remote PCs. But try to keep it to one. Either NetBEUI or TCP/IP.
If e.g. PC1 has got TCP/IP installed and PC2 is using TCP/IP and NetBEUI, then things may break. PC1 should be able to connect to PC2. PC2 should have problems to connect to PC1, when PC2 is using NetBEUI in the first place. On NT machines you can specify the order, in which the machines is using the transport protocols through the bindings. Whether to use NetBEUI first or second. On Win98 machines, you can do this through the binding, too. But you cannot speifiy the order. And that causes the troubles.
Hope this helps.
Matthias

RE: Peer-to-Peer mixed Win2000/95 c Netbui and TCP/IP

This is what's happening in my office:

I have a three machines.  PC1 has TCP/IP & NetBEUI.  PC2 has TCP/IP & NetBEUI and PC3 has TCP/IP.  All three are w2kPro.

PC2 can ping PC1 no problem.  PC3 cannot.  Until NetBEUI is installed.

So does this mean that when a mahcine has both protocols install, NetBEUI will be used over TCP/IP?

Thanks.

RE: Peer-to-Peer mixed Win2000/95 c Netbui and TCP/IP

Karina,
I think you are right to say that NetBEUI is kind of 'preferred' over TCP/IP. Normally PC1 should identify that the request comes from the TCP/IP stack and then answer over TCP/IP. But it is difficult to say, how this is handled inside the machine. I had the same issues with almost the same environment. Only, it was NT where I could change the order for the bindings per adapter. IN Win2k I couldn't find these settings.

What makes me wonder is the fact that you run into these problems with the PING command, which requires TCP/IP.
Also try it accessing a share directly (\\PC1\sharename).
Or through the Network Neighbourhood.

I am also interested, why you are using both Transports, TCP/IP and NetBEUI. Is there any chance to get rid of NETBEUI?
Regards
Matthias

RE: Peer-to-Peer mixed Win2000/95 c Netbui and TCP/IP

Hi Matthias

I cannot get to the pc using the Network Neighbourhood.  

I'm going to try to change the order of the bindings - on PC1.  In w2k, if you go to the Network properties - Advanced - Advanced settings you can change the order.  

I find it strange too that it would affect the ping command.

Oh, and I don't want to use both, but the guys here usually try to fix things themselves :o(  I can't stop them from trying, I can only clean up the mess they leave.

But if I ask them to refrain from using it, I want to be sure that it isn't needed.

Also, I'm wondering why I don't always see all the pcs & domains on the Network in the Network Neighbourhood?

Thanks a lot for your help.

RE: Peer-to-Peer mixed Win2000/95 c Netbui and TCP/IP

Hi Karina,
Thanks for the hint regarding the binding order!!

I also know these kind of 'Power Users' also quite well. The only way would be, to remove local admin rights. But they won't like you any more after that

Network Neighbourhood is always tricky. Machines usually only appear in the Network Neighborhood, when they are switched on. But there can be longer delays, when you have more than 2 machines per Domain/Workgroup per subnet. Especially, when you switch off a machine, then it can take up to 40-50 minutes, until the station is removed from the browsing list.

Are you using Win2k PCs in mixed mode and with no AD structure? (Netbios over TCP/IP enabled). If yes, the Microsoft Browsing is responsible for the Net Neighbourhood.

You'll find a lot of information on MS Technet:
http://www.microsoft.com/technet/treevie...
and
http://www.microsoft.com/technet/treevie...

Some basics behind Browsing:
- Every PC, that has got a share open or file sharing enabled is notifying his Local Master Browser about his presence. The Master Browser maintains this list of 'Server Services' for his Domain. He will also answer the requests, when a users opens the Net Neighborhood. Every Win2K and WinNT machine can become Master Browser.  

- If you run 2 transports (NetBEUI and TCP/IP (NBT), then there will be 2 separate Browsing processes. The machines running TCP/IP only won't see the NETBEUI machines. Machines with both transports will participate in both processes. But the binding order may again be responsible, whether you'll see machine or not.

- There will be one Master Browser (MB) per Domain/workgroup and per IP subnet. A local Master Browser will pick up the list of servers of this own domain in his IP-subnet. He will also learn about the MBs of different domains in his subnet.
- Local Master Browser learn about PCs in other subnets (own domain) through the PDC. If there is no PDC in place, you'll need to promote one server to become a 'Domain Master Browser'.

Hope this helps a little. The reference on Technet is not bad. But in the very end, Browsing and Network Neighbourhood is a kind of MS and IBM legacy, that is not too reliable.
Regards
Matthias

RE: Peer-to-Peer mixed Win2000/95 c Netbui and TCP/IP

Win 2kPro on both PC's....

Ok, I have this problem, this tutorial (http://www.annoyances.org/exec/show/ics_2000) said to install NetBEUI only on the machine with the internet connection.... Ok, installed, rebooted PCs, dialed the net, then BOOM - NetBEUI error 733!
This is starting to annoy me....... anyone help?

Red Flag This Post

Please let us know here why this post is inappropriate. Reasons such as off-topic, duplicates, flames, illegal, vulgar, or students posting their homework.

Red Flag Submitted

Thank you for helping keep Tek-Tips Forums free from inappropriate posts.
The Tek-Tips staff will check this out and take appropriate action.

Reply To This Thread

Posting in the Tek-Tips forums is a member-only feature.

Click Here to join Tek-Tips and talk with other members!

Resources

Close Box

Join Tek-Tips® Today!

Join your peers on the Internet's largest technical computer professional community.
It's easy to join and it's free.

Here's Why Members Love Tek-Tips Forums:

Register now while it's still free!

Already a member? Close this window and log in.

Join Us             Close