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Avaya IP Office Software Upgrade Policy changes effective 15 September Helpful Member!(16) 

raknas (TechnicalUser) (OP)
12 Jul 12 4:46
From The Avaya Partner Portal I saw today.

10 Jul 2012 Last Updated 10 Jul 2012


"Effective on 15 September 2012, Avaya IP Office will no longer provide free software upgrades for any version of IP Office software.

Prior to this date, partners could download upgrades within the first 90 days after purchase."

telesonic (IS/IT--Management)
12 Jul 12 4:50
you can still upgrade in the first 90 days.
raknas (TechnicalUser) (OP)
12 Jul 12 4:57
Am i reading it wrong then? It translates to me that there will be no free upgrade. I.E post 15th september customer buys system. next day new version comes out. does not get free upgrade as pre 15th september the customer would be able to upgrade?
Pepp77 (Vendor)
12 Jul 12 5:03
I also read this as Raknas does.

| ACSS SME |

tlpeter (Programmer)
12 Jul 12 5:26
I did read this in the 8.1 upgrade doc

CODE

5 IP Office Licensing Changes 5.1 Entitlement Period Effective April 19, 2012, the entitlement policy is being updated as follows and all prior entitlements to an IP Office upgrade are superseded no effect. The “Entitlement Period” is defined as the period within 90 days after the Customer places their first call (intercom or outside) on the system. This is targeted to those newer users who may have just purchased a new system, and Avaya brings out a newer release  Any upgrade must be completed within 60 days of a GA release of Release 8.1.  In no event shall the entitlement period extend beyond September 1, 2012.  For example: • An IP Office system brought into service March 31st could upgrade to 8.1 on June 29th, the day of release, but could not upgrade the day after (90 day limit reached) • A system Brought in to service May 1st would have until July 30th to upgrade to 8.1 (90 days from May 1st and within the 60 day post GA) • A system Brought in to service June 18th  would have until September 1st to upgrade (75 days as it is 60 days post GA ) • A system brought into service August 23rdth, if still at R8.0 will only have until September 1st 2012 to upgrade (8 days) Customers are entitled to an upgrade to release R8.1 of IP Office software during the Entitlement Period, as defined. After the Entitlement Period, Customers must pay for an upgrade to R8.1.    Customers must be at the current, R8.1 release, to be eligible for IP Office Support Services.  The entitlement period will cease for any future software after 15th September 2012 

BAZINGA!

I'm not insane, my mother had me tested!

tlpeter (Programmer)
12 Jul 12 5:29
Hmmm, something seems to go wrong.
Page 8 on the 8.1 update doc on the partner portal.

From GA 60 days time to upgrade but within the 90 days grace period.

BAZINGA!

I'm not insane, my mother had me tested!

Helpful Member!  amriddle01 (Programmer)
12 Jul 12 8:07
Problem with this is they always ship at least 1 release behind current, sometimes 2. They can's just leave it as a lottery what system you are getting smile

Helpful Member!(12)  IPOfficeGuru (IS/IT--Management)
12 Jul 12 8:13
The upgrade policy should read...."Customer Entitlment period begins on the first release and activation of IP Office Software Code that has NO FREAKIN BUGS and the product works as specified with 5-9's of reliability. Until that point in time, Avaya provides free releases of software until they get it right, and Avaya reimburses business partners that expend hours and hours of field time on customer repairs, etc...".
raknas (TechnicalUser) (OP)
12 Jul 12 8:15
could'nt of said it any better. worth a star
andynetcon (IS/IT--Management)
12 Jul 12 8:23
Guru, you're absolutely correct. R8 has been a nightmare for me.
Greybeard191 (TechnicalUser)
12 Jul 12 10:43
another star for IPOfficeGuru...

GB
EmuDan (TechnicalUser)
12 Jul 12 11:45
...and another!

Dan

If it ain't broke, why fix it?
If it's broke, try to fix it..
If you can't fix it, get yourself a good baseball bat and swing away! :)

tekguy125 (TechnicalUser)
12 Jul 12 11:52
Apparently, Avaya is that confident that R8.1 will fix all the bugs and be the best software around hands down!
AndrePa (TechnicalUser)
12 Jul 12 13:53
I agree, another star for IPOfficeGuru...

Westi (Programmer)
12 Jul 12 20:19
sweet, Guru
have more pink, R8 is almost as bad as R4 was. Time to get this whole thing under control and start quality testing that is actually testing like the real use of the system needs.
Paging would be a good start.

Joe W.

FHandw, ACSS

http://convergednetworks.ca

hairlessupportmonkey (IS/IT--Management)
13 Jul 12 2:03
I think the Beta test program is a little flawed and also why does tried and tested features break with every release?

ACSS - SME
General Geek



IPOfficeGuru (IS/IT--Management)
13 Jul 12 11:17
Flattered by star count - Thanks to my peers !!
Mr. Avaya - if you are monitoring......
IPO Business Partner since R1.0.
Like so many of my peers out there, we are tired of;
Faulty code with features that don't work.
Faulty IP500 hardware and 95xx/96xx hardware.
Callbacks to customer sites by our staff.
Constant changes in licensing policy.
Clueless or evasive Avaya Tier 3 reps.
Most of alll....Not making monay...which is the deathnel if they cant turn this boat around.

"Never fear billing a client for services rendered, or they will think your time is worthless"

telesonic (IS/IT--Management)
13 Jul 12 11:39
curseGosh you an angry man...

Have you seen the license changes for V8.1 and the server scenarios for multi-sites.
I understood it at the briefing but weep at it everytime I consider the fact I have to try and relay this to the sales team.
I also clearly see that it is going to confuse people so much that Avaya will change it at V8.2 - to simplify the situation.

I have been in from V1.0 as well.
At least things are not as bad as V3 to 3.2 that was the darkest hour.

I would add... Do I really need to have quite so many passwords, portals, where I get too confused trying to find anything?

& As poor as it all is, and every word you say is true. I still think that they are better than the rest...
Have a good weekend
daveinwearside (Programmer)
16 Jul 12 7:13
@Telesonic

being the best of a bad bunch isn't a selling point id push to my customers, would you?

Avaya IP office is a great product. no doubts there.

I just think Avaya are trying too hard to bring new features with every release. It would be nice if they slowed it down a little and got the existing features working with every release before they add new stuff.

In my opinion they are rushing software for new features to keep up with other vendors at the expense of a stable platform that does what it says on the tin.


ACSS SME
APSS SME
A word to the wise ain't necessary - it's the stupid ones that need the advice.

hibroth (TechnicalUser)
16 Jul 12 10:20
Such a confusion, the GA doc states :

3.1 Upgrade License 6
Existing systems being upgraded to Release 8.1 will require an appropriate upgrade
license. The exception is new systems upgraded within 90 days of first power up.

I read the 8.1 upgrade doc too, but the #145 just published doesn't talk about the 60 days limit upgrading to 8.1
DrDrayAvaya (Programmer)
16 Jul 12 10:33
you would think that being the best of a bad bunch would offer a glimmer of hope of being able to squash all the competitors into the dirt...
all the japanese systems are extremely solid, but so freakin boring! NEC / Panasonic etc...
they're ultra conservative, but expectations are safely held at low levels. there aren't as many bells to ring.
maybe the alternate or use similar policy to releases of linux, so nightly builds and stable releases offered for distribution. Custom ROMs!! haha!! can you imagine the heartache... "custom ROM's will void warranty..."
BUT... if all we want is a nice solid stable release for a client that doesn't want bells or whistles. just a solid boring TDM PBX for example.
Surely a really bland image/bin can be applied.
I just put a custom dumbed down, resource friendly ROM onto my old samsung galaxy 1, and it's now a whole new machine. :)
Why not have a similar supported/ unsupported model? take buggy unused components out of the mix on sites that will never use it?
Especially useful for sites you just need to be boring old NEC stable, that are 6 hours drive away in the middle of nowhere...
remote access is extremely important. The first thing I setup on any system we install, Manager, Monitor and SSI. and using something like keepass to change and keep public snoopers away from IPO's left open to public internet on port 69 with default Administrator!

Thoughts / Comments? I think Avaya are heading in the completely wrong opposite direction to where they oughta be. one side of their operation boasts opening doors (linux App DVD), while another is furiously shutting them! FW upgrade path was a huge selling point.
Helpful Member!  DanACS (TechnicalUser)
17 Jul 12 12:20
My opinion has always been if you want a small system with a few phones and no real features go and buy a panasonic or samsung - Avaya is a premium brand, not the "smart price" alternative and should be sold as such.

Avaya's main worry is not in losing the low end sales, it is that they are losing out on the mid range market (to Mitels and Ciscos) where their flagship product(ACM/AURA) is now just too costly in the current climate and the IPO didn't cut the mustard, that is why new features are being rushed through and I think the direction they are taking is absolutely correct (personally I still think they dropped the wrong system and should have developed the INDeX further rather than the IPO)

In a few more versions the product will (i think) slow down and follow the ACM path a little more with a major release every 2 years.

What I think they should do is continue down the current path with the IPO as a midsize edition and make the basic edition a totally seperate product - it does have a place but not as an IPO - i'm thinking something along the lines of what they had with the INDeX and the INDex 30 - still an IP Office but not modular and not upgradable - just a simple piece of tin aimed at the sites that are small and basic and will stay that way.

ACSS - SME
APSS - SME
APDS - Unified Communications
ACS - IP Telephony
ACA - IP Telephony

Helpful Member!(2)  amriddle01 (Programmer)
17 Jul 12 13:45
Dan, nothing you said there excuses the shit firmware they have been releasing lately, nor justifies the price increase they do with every release through licence changes that just charge more for existing hardware and features (but that are actually broken), their support structure is the most evasive and inefficiant example you could hope for, and the convoluted set of websites and logins you have as a BP is just madness, sort all that out and they are onto a winner smile

Archangel58 (Vendor)
12 Sep 12 0:14
Sorry to revive an old thread but I wanted to verify if anyone noticed any changes. I recently obtained a new power demo kit and decided to test the Sept. 1 deadline for the R8.1 upgrade from R7.0(5). It seemed to go through ok yesterday with no errors flagged. Should I expect some future disruption?

Thanks for any feedback
Phoneguy15 (Vendor)
13 Sep 12 15:42
@Archangel58, I am also interested in this as we recently got a new R8.0 demo.
I was going to try to upgrade before the Sept 1st "cutoff" date for the entitled upgrade but was too busy with other things to get it done.
I would still like to try it but I'm wondering if it will be a problem after 30 days or something.

jamie77 (Programmer)
8 Oct 12 17:47
Right so now we are past the deadline, it seems IPOSS is NOT a value added option. If you find a problem and the site doesn't have this, you won't get support.

Anybody else seeing this????? I belive one of our engineers has just had a ticket turned back to him without even looking at at, as the site is 8.1 without IPOSS.

The way I read it, they have shelved the Block Of Support Hours (that we may or may not have bought!!!!) and IPOSS is what we have moving forward.

So now we really do have to pay Avaya to tell them where they went wrong with thier own s/w.

Jamie Green

Football is not a matter of life and death-It is far more important!!!!

nurban (Vendor)
8 Oct 12 18:20
Here's from the latest release notes... (Same paragraph in the 8.0 (46) release as well)

Tech Bulletin 147, p3
The release of 8.1(52) IP Office firmware removes the 90 day entitlement period. Any
IP500v2 system currently within the 90 day entitlement period will be set to release 8.1
when the 8.1(52) firmware is loaded and the system is restarted. Any subsequent
upgrades to a higher major or minor release will require a Software Upgrade licence to
be added to the system. New IP500v2 systems installed with firmware 8.1(52) will have
no entitlement period and will be set to 8.1 after the first call is made. A Software
Upgrade licence would then be required to upgrade to a later major or minor release if
required.

tlpeter (Programmer)
9 Oct 12 0:34
Jamie, are you serious???
Don't u do business with a distri?

BAZINGA!

I'm not insane, my mother had me tested!

jamie77 (Programmer)
9 Oct 12 3:34
Yes we do Peter. I've not had to raise a question yet, but this is what I'm lead to believe.

Jamie Green

Football is not a matter of life and death-It is far more important!!!!

DrDrayAvaya (Programmer)
9 Oct 12 8:44
AND, because it represents such great value... resellers can now convince end users to contact Avaya directly so resellers don't have to talk to clients post sale ever again with any of the rubbish faults that pop up. ;) awesome!
"here's a fabulous new IPPBX that WILL have bugs, and you can call those who made it yourself if you like... 24/7.... AND they'll do APR NBD for you too! WITHOUT calling the reseller?!
Our disti hasn't updated us on what's going on at all with this, so it just makes me choke to think how average resellers get dealt to with firmware bug reports/ faults etc, and now they want to take on end users direct?

am i reading the IPOSS directive correctly here or is it meant to have some hidden value there somewhere?
perhaps buy the 24/7 from Avaya, resell to customer as monthly for LOTS more, but upsell customer that they can ring Avaya 24/7 with oddities, and they'll manage the whole process.

That could actually work?!
telecomtekperson (Vendor)
9 Oct 12 9:49
Hey Doc, IPOSS lets you sell Co-Delivery so you can attach it to your maintenance.
We love it because we can bury it in our maint costs and we arent responsible for the hardware. Our sales guys never tell the customer they can call Avaya directly, they always call us, and we escalate as necessary.

And there is still a 90 day warranty on software, just no entitlement. So they removed the "verbiage" entitlement, but you are still available to get current code as per warranty.


DrDrayAvaya (Programmer)
9 Oct 12 10:00
sweet, and that's all good? so resellers actually able to bypass the disti escalation process effectively if you look at it that way.
is that the intention from Avaya though? seems to be mass confusion.? I've just put a quote thru that has about $1700 cost IPOSS 24/7 5yr, but making 350 per month for 5 years, so that maths works pretty good for me... but I could still tell them to ring Avaya for moves/changes remotely :) ha! a bit cheeky maybe?
CarGoSki (Programmer)
9 Oct 12 10:05
You can still use block of hours for 8.0 and below however they appear to consume those hours at a high rate.

DrDrayAvaya (Programmer)
9 Oct 12 10:10
our disti buffered that side of things, by charging a service contract one off cost to resellers/ onsold to clients (12 month voice support) then disti purchased the hours with Avaya, but dealt with problems internally themselves first if possible... so not having to pay Avaya support hours.
telecomtekperson (Vendor)
9 Oct 12 11:50
Dr Avaya, your previous statement is incorrect. IPOSS is "BREAK FIX" warranty only. This is not maintenance support for MAC work....


jamie77 (Programmer)
9 Oct 12 16:44
SO, having talked with our Disti tech, it is this simple.

Our disty will talk to us, but if it is a bug on 8.1+, it can not be raised to Avaya without that site having IPOSS in place.

The cost can be swallowed into larger maintenance contracts, but smaller ones with an annual cost of < £1000 have will have to 20%+ more just to get problems fixed.

The selling point is they get Avaya support (this should be a given??) and any software upgrades they like. Truth is most SME sites don't upgrade. I can count on one hand how many of our Avaya sites have paid for an upgrade license in the last 18 months. and who pays for the engineering time to do it????

If you bought a TV and the software didn't work, you would take it back and it would get fixed or replaced. do we send Avaya thier kit back, get our money back and o off and buy a Shortell??

This model is fine in Enterprise markets where these costs are not a big %, but not the small SME.

Jamie Green

Football is not a matter of life and death-It is far more important!!!!

DrDrayAvaya (Programmer)
9 Oct 12 16:51
ah, well I'm learning more off you gents than our disti has told us. we haven't seen/heard a thing until it auto appears on our quotes from the disti website automatically.
could onsell this as anything we like at the moment..
I would imagine we're not likely to put the customer thru having to talk direct to the manufacturer in any instance, as the relationship lies between reseller and client 100%. i don't know many sites that love the brand so much they wanted to buy it regardless of reseller.

Cheers for clearing it up though, next stop is our Disti to find out why we're floating in the dark still...
odhiambo0 (IS/IT--Management)
10 Oct 12 4:38
And here I am, looking into buying an IP0 500 (8.1(x))? Let me start looking for IPO412 from Amazonsmile
I simply don't see why I should get into this mess, seriously.
DrDrayAvaya (Programmer)
10 Oct 12 6:11
@odhiambo0, sadly the Avaya probably is the better of all the mainstream systems.
the IP500v2 chassis have been great for us as a reseller, no duds yet. had one that had a slightly funny SD card reader, otherwise fine.
the power supplies on the IP500v1's were awful, although never admitted to by higher powers... imagine the product recall dramas.
Otherwise, have had the odd card do odd things, heaps of DC power packs that feed the older control units and expansion modules, but they're just DC power packs that run 24/7 for 5+ years. they pop eventually, like light bulbs.
The 412 will be no better in terms of firmware though too. on the whole, the error checking built into the management software must have helped immensely when it was implemented. prior to that, small oversights in programming caused all sorts of pain, combing thru the programming to find things like duplicate entries or invalid characters etc.
compared with other brands, the handsets are no different in terms of failure rates, tis the world we live in now. ;)
In terms of those "promise/delivery" graphs, the Avaya is in the top quadrant... they just do the darndest things sometimes! drives us nuts.

If you want to see a crap product (IMHO) the Cisco UC500, which was demonstrated on stage at a big launch, and it didn't work.... at all. the system failed on stage. the staff proceeded to tell 200 techs watching that the firmware wasn't quite ready for our country at that point. too early...
cisco ship gear with firmware bugs... and you need to buy a support contract to download the fix for it. awesome strategy... and they're in the "big guns" group.. painful ay.
jamie77 (Programmer)
10 Oct 12 13:07
odhiambo0, stick with the 500. Get it from a good BP and you will be fine.

Jamie Green

Football is not a matter of life and death-It is far more important!!!!

ChrisBoos (Instructor)
11 Oct 12 10:20
Hi all,

I like to add an additional Licensing change in the latest 8.1 release of 25 september:


Note: An IP Office 8.0 system with Essential Edition functioning but not enabled with the
required Essential Edition license key will have all telephony functionality disabled after
the 8.1 upgrade. It is important to verify the license information prior to upgrading. If
Essential Edition is not visible in the license summary, an Essential Edition license must
be purchased and installed prior to attempting the 8.1 upgrade.

What does this exactly mean?
For example:

A customer upgraded to 8.0 have automatically received the “Virtual Essential Edition license” this allows the customer to run the essential edition of the IP-Office, does the above note tells us that when they upgrade to the latest 8.1 release they need to Buy the Essential Edition license?

Also what does Avaya mean with “the license summary”?
yankblan (Vendor)
11 Oct 12 22:26
I have an 8.0 with essential licence started this week, and after reading this thread 3 times and the KB bulletins over and over, still can't figure out if I should upgrade to 8.1 or if I'll have a bad "licence needed" surprise on the next reboot.

I'm turning the corner on this product (starting to like it a bit), but the software mess and broken features are getting on my nerves.
DrDrayAvaya (Programmer)
12 Oct 12 3:23
so there are two different essential edition licenses...
1. virtual essential
2. actual essential edition...

our disti tech asked us to downgrade a brand new box from 8.0 back to 7.0 (without making any calls on it, hence not starting the clock on the 90 days.
at 7.0 we made a call on it, which started the timer, then upgraded to 8.1.
this generated the virtual essential edition license, and system is running OK at 8.1, no warnings, license is noted as valid. maybe at 90 days it'll stop!? I'll let you know! ha.

when doing the upgrades, the validation is what i believe to be the first column (required) column in the upgrade wizard.
when it reads 0 required, it means that the first call hasn't been made on the system, when 255, it has had a call made on it. does that change the rules somehow? I haven't had enough time/ or new systems to trial and error.

Anyone know the real/official story here?

We're getting the essential edition license included free from our disti at the moment in any case, but the site above i hadn't recieved the licensing in time before install, so had to try the downgrade trick. will update if it stops!

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