Question on notice Question on notice mudsucker (MIS) (OP) 2 Apr 08 18:57 How much time does one need to give before leaving a job? I know two weeks is customary but why? Is one week okay? RE: Question on notice DonQuichote (Programmer) 2 Apr 08 19:46 Isn't that stated in your contract? +++ Despite being wrong in every important aspect, that is a very good analogy +++ Hex (in Darwin's Watch) RE: Question on notice Cstorms (IS/IT--Management) 2 Apr 08 22:23 I base mine on how I am being treated by the company, I dont give two weeks notice unless I feel I have been treated with respect and the company deserves a notice. If not, depending on how deeply involved in any current projects and what the potential effects it will have on the coworkers that dont deserve to be crapped on my mileage varies... I know in alot of cases companies that are downsizing for various reasons will give you less then 10 minutes notice, much less the courtesy of 2 weeks.. Cory RE: Question on notice acewarlock (TechnicalUser) 3 Apr 08 00:48 You don't have to give any notice if you don't want to, but it could bit you in the Butt later if your new company finds out. This is a Signature and not part of the answer, it appears on every reply.This is an Analogy so don't take it personally as some have.Why change the engine if all you need is to change the spark plugs. RE: Question on notice benlinkknilneb (Programmer) 3 Apr 08 08:11 Indeed, I would agree that it depends. Typically I give two weeks. The one job where I was constantly screwed, over and over again, I gave none at all. If an employer treats his/her employees like dirt, no warning is deserved.The only thing about that is that it can affect your job search. Answers to interviewers' questions like "I left for personal reasons" will only go so far, especially in the case of giving no notice. BenThe ships hung in the sky in much the same way that bricks don't. - Douglas Adams RE: Question on notice MasterRacker (IS/IT Management) 3 Apr 08 09:26 Beware that some companies will walk an IT person out the door immediately because they have passwords for everything. You should try and give two weeks, but be ready to leave immediately before giving notice just in case. _____JeffIt's never too early to begin preparing for International Talk Like a Pirate Day"The software I buy sucks, The software I write sucks. It's time to give up and have a beer..." - Me RE: Question on notice mudsucker (MIS) (OP) 3 Apr 08 09:42 The company I work for offered me FTE a year ago but instead renewed the contract which will end in early summer. I have asked if they will hire me or if my contract will be renewd but I am always given the same answer "let me get back to you" and that has been a consistent answer for months. I asked a week ago and was told "ask again in a week." RE: Question on notice SQLSister (Programmer) 3 Apr 08 09:59 Under those circumstances, I would certainly look for another job. I would still give two weeks notice though unless the job I got was dependent on me being there in one week. It will never hurt you to give two weeks notice (except in the above case)even if they ask you to leave that day. If you have specialized knowledge that others are likely not to have (passwords, file locations etc.), prepare a document with what the company would need to know before you give notice and then turn it in with the letter. Leaving like a professional is always a good thing becasue you never know when the people you worked with there might be the hiring officals at another company later or on or what they might be saying about you to their friends who work in other places. And more than one person has come back to a company they left later on. Burning your bridges is not generally a good idea no matter how annoyed you are at the company. "NOTHING is more important in a database than integrity." ESquared RE: Question on notice mudsucker (MIS) (OP) 3 Apr 08 10:16 I asked my consulting company to press for an answer for me - since I am getting stonewalled - if the contract would be renewed again and lately they (consulting company) have been avoiding me and a couple of months ago confessed to me they didn't expect me to be there after the contract expires. I was asked to become an employee and it dried up and got a contract extension but now I cannot even get an answer. I have been offered another job which is pending a background investigation. RE: Question on notice mudsucker (MIS) (OP) 3 Apr 08 10:20 Last time my consulting company asked me if I want to just wait until the contract is up and see what happens. See if they extend it or if I am just out of a job. Not likely they will hire me FTE. RE: Question on notice chrissie1 (Programmer) 3 Apr 08 15:26 My contract says 3 months. I must be important You americans are lucky. Christiaan BaesBelgiumMy Blog RE: Question on notice spamly (MIS) 3 Apr 08 15:37 I live in an "Employment At Will" state. This means that the employer or employee can terminate the employment at any time without stating a reason. That said, there is some recourse on behalf of my employer if I quit without 4 weeks notice; they won't pay out my accrued vacation time. Also, I have to pay out any training costs if I leave within a year of the training. RE: Question on notice Bandenjamin (Programmer) 3 Apr 08 16:56 Christiaan, So the 3 months notice, does that work both ways? For many here in the states you can be let go for any or no reason and you will have little to no recourse. --DanWhenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect. Mark Twain RE: Question on notice fredericofonseca (IS/IT--Management) 3 Apr 08 20:21 in many European countries the notice period will work both ways.Normally period is from 1 to 3 month, depending on the time one is working with the company. e.g. first year is 1 month, but after 3 or 4 years it will turn to 2-3 month notice either part. This is for permanent jobs. Contract job has other rules.. RegardsFrederico FonsecaSysSoft Integrated Ltdwww.syssoft-int.comFAQ219-2884: How Do I Get Great Answers To my Tek-Tips Questions?FAQ181-2886: How can I maximize my chances of getting an answer? RE: Question on notice chrissie1 (Programmer) 4 Apr 08 02:15 Like frederico says. The other way round is even longer depending on the years you work there. For my kind of contract (perm job with the government) it is one month per year (but they would need a very good reason for that (and not working is not a good reason)). It stays three months for me.Of course if I decide to stop working today then they will have to take me to court to get their money and that could take several years. Most likely not worth it. On the other hand if they give me my notice and decide for security reasons that I should leave immediatly they just continue to pay me or they pay all the money at once (not that I want to get fired). Getting fired while working for the government doesn't look good on your resume, chances are that you will never get another job after that, anywhere. Christiaan BaesBelgiumMy Blog RE: Question on notice ChrisHunt (Programmer) 4 Apr 08 07:47 I used to work for a UK Local Authority, most of whose employees had a three month notice period. There was a major shake-up of local government organisation in the county, leading to the need to make some staff redundant.The problem was, they couldn't decide exactly which staff they'd be getting rid of until shortly before they'd have to go. The solution they came up with was to give everybody three months notice on reorg day minus three months, and then rescind that notice for all the people they decided to keep. Most people kept their jobs, but those that didn't only got a few weeks real notice.B*stards.Returning to the original question - the legal answer would depend entirely on your contract terms, and on employment law in the state/country where you live. However, I would echo SQLSister's advice on not burning your bridges. Resist the temptation to extract vengeance (however justified it may be!), you could regret it later.Mind you, if your contract is drawing near its end, be quite blatant about looking for work elsewhere. Sometimes that concentrates the minds of clients to sort out that extension that they "never quite get around to". -- Chris HuntWebmaster & TragedianExtra Connections Ltd RE: Question on notice MasterRacker (IS/IT Management) 4 Apr 08 09:15 spamly,The training costs is pretty common and, I think, reasonable. If you're past probation, it doesn't sound legal to withold accrued vacation. SQLSister made a great point about making your own effort to record every account/access code etc. you know so your employer can change them. You're making a good faith effort to help them and even if you're leaving on good terms, what if something were to happen a few months later? You want to minimize your chance of ending up a suspect. _____JeffIt's never too early to begin preparing for International Talk Like a Pirate Day"The software I buy sucks, The software I write sucks. It's time to give up and have a beer..." - Me RE: Question on notice lionelhill (TechnicalUser) 4 Apr 08 13:57 Chris Hunt,I've heard of that strategy being used in various places, usually in taxpayer-funded areas. It's not only a cruel strategy, but also an incredibly stupid one because there's a strong likelihood the best people, whom you'd most like to retain, will manage to find a job elsewhere before the rescind notices go out. RE: Question on notice norteldude78 (IS/IT--Management) 4 Apr 08 16:00 Where I work, when you leave your work gets "dumped" on your soon to be ex-teammates. I would give sufficient notice out of respect for them at least. Sometimes it not just about you and management, but the guy who is picking up after you. RE: Question on notice aarenot (Vendor) 8 Apr 08 11:59 Notice is required contractually in some cases, and should be respected in the case that you are contractualy obligated to do so. You would have signed this agreement prior to employment if it is a pending agreement. In some cases employment contracts refer to other documents such as employee manuals, or employee policies which are not provided at the time of signing the contract. In this case signing that you recieved these documents may amend your employment contract after the fact.In the case where notice is not contractualy an obligation because you signed an employment agreement with this provision, or local law does not demand notice you are pretty much on your own to decide. In general, companies do have another way to set policy on notice periods by their established procedures. In some states if a company does not accept notice periods without ceasing to compensate the employee for it's endurance they may have no ability to legaly claim you gave no notice. In my state there is precedent in court for an employee suing, and winning damages for their former employer stating that the employee gave no notice when the company had some history of immediate dismissal upon recieveing notice. I consider notice is established as required only when reasonably percieved to be something which is accepted by the employer. Accepting notice means you are paid, and your ending date is considered to be the date specified in your resignation letter. This would include for calculating benefits, vestings, training reimbursement period expirations, scheduled pay increases, etc. Beyond that, wait until you are vested, benefits are earned, training reimbursement periods are passed, and you get that last pay raise so you can claim it as your highest pay rate before you give notice. RE: Question on notice acewarlock (TechnicalUser) 8 Apr 08 14:01 All contracts are written to protect the company and not the employee, the only time there is a protection for the employee is if it is Mandated by law. Unless you have a Mandated law protecting you, they can fire you for no reason and if what they did wasn't legal, who can afford to fight it. This is a Signature and not part of the answer, it appears on every reply.This is an Analogy so don't take it personally as some have.Why change the engine if all you need is to change the spark plugs. RE: Question on notice ChrisHunt (Programmer) 9 Apr 08 05:17 Quote (Lionelhill):There's a strong likelihood the best people, whom you'd most like to retain, will manage to find a job elsewhere before the rescind notices go outYou may be right, I couldn't possibly comment. I found a job elsewhere myself -- Chris HuntWebmaster & TragedianExtra Connections Ltd RE: Question on notice spamly (MIS) 9 Apr 08 13:42 Quote (acewarlock):All contracts are written to protect the company and not the employee, the only time there is a protection for the employee is if it is Mandated by law. Unless you have a Mandated law protecting you, they can fire you for no reason and if what they did wasn't legal, who can afford to fight it. This isn't completely true. Contracts also outline compensation and, in some cases, severance packages. This can serve to protect employees. I know that where I work they are looking at outsourcing, if they do decide to layoff any employees, they must payout a fairly generous severance package. Further, if I am fired "for no reason" they also have to pay out the severance package. If there is a real reason to fire an employee (crime, gross insubordination, etc.), this is a "for cause" dismissal. Not only do they not have to pay out the severance package, but they do not have to pay unemployment. This is a tricky situation though and must be documented very thoroughly before an employer goes this route. RE: Question on notice acewarlock (TechnicalUser) 9 Apr 08 14:12 In all my 50 years I've been working I have never seen an Employment contract like you discribed. This is a Signature and not part of the answer, it appears on every reply.This is an Analogy so don't take it personally as some have.Why change the engine if all you need is to change the spark plugs. RE: Question on notice JCreamerII (MIS) 9 Apr 08 14:14 Contracts can also be written by an employee. It's usually when they need you more than you need them and you have the leverage. But when it is written by the employer it is generally written to there advantage.Jim C. RE: Question on notice spamly (MIS) 9 Apr 08 14:30 acewarlock: I've only just completed a degree in management and I've had to take a few courses on US employment law, HR management, career management, business ethics, etc. From what I've been taught, employment contracts are "supposed" to protect both parties. That said, it is not always the case as you are pointing out.I also have a fairly odd employer. They are both for-profit and not-for-profit. They deal with thousands of union and non-union employees. They also have complex contracts with dozens of partnerships. Welcome to the world of healthcare. RE: Question on notice DonQuichote (Programmer) 10 Apr 08 12:20 Quote:All contracts are written to protect the company and not the employeeGiven the fact that the employer writes them, this is not that surprising. It is surprising, however, that most employees don't give any backup and just sign them. A contract is a agreement between two parties. So both parties should have some input (so the results of your negotiations ARE in your contract. So it is beneficial to you as well) and should agree on the whole. If one of the parties does not, the contract should be fixed before signing.I had a few contracts that had ridiculous non-competition clauses or non-disclosure clauses.For example, one company had such strict clauses that I could not even legally tell my girlfriend what company I would be going to work for! Off course, I did not sign it right away. I kindly informed the company of the implications of the contract and that I could not be supposed to agree with that clause.They did not change the contract, but sent a separate letter that said they would not go that far. I then signed with remark "With attachment, agreed" and attached the letter to the contract.When you read contracts, you may get a very negative opinion about the company. But usually the main reason for this is a lawyer who composed this legalspeak, not the company wanting to rip you off. +++ Despite being wrong in every important aspect, that is a very good analogy +++ Hex (in Darwin's Watch) RE: Question on notice SQLSister (Programmer) 10 Apr 08 13:24 I, for one, will never sign another non-compete clause. I signed one and then two years later got laid off and told in the meeting where they laid me off that they would enforce the non-compete (and I believed them because they had recently taken another ex-employee to court for that)so could not find another job in the same field I was working in even though I left involuntarily and it was in no way my fault that I was unemployed. Luckily for me, I had other skills than teaching. "NOTHING is more important in a database than integrity." ESquared RE: Question on notice acewarlock (TechnicalUser) 10 Apr 08 13:38 Usually NON-Compete Clauses are only if you quit. unless your Clause included involuntarily termination, I don't think that would be legal. This is a Signature and not part of the answer, it appears on every reply.This is an Analogy so don't take it personally as some have.Why change the engine if all you need is to change the spark plugs. RE: Question on notice SQLSister (Programmer) 10 Apr 08 14:47 It did. "NOTHING is more important in a database than integrity." ESquared RE: Question on notice aarenot (Vendor) 10 Apr 08 15:44 The state I live in is a state which does not have apointed, but has elected judges. The state is also a "right to work", and an "at will" employment state. That means that no matter what you sign as an employee the state holds your right to work as a state regualted right not soley the subject of employemnt contracts. No judge in the state of Wisconsin has ever, nor will ever decide that a man, or woman who is a citizen of WI not have the right to do work to obligate them to pay taxes to the state, and support their family because some company does not want them to. That does not mean they can take company customer files, or proprietary information to their competitors other than what they can carry inside their brain, but it does mean they(judges) will protect their job as a judge by not screwing the voters into unemployment. The exception can be severance agreements because if signed may be payment in kind for the term of the agreements provisions. Read your severance contract before you sign your right to work away!