Crystal Licensing Issues

According to the information at: www.kenhamady.com/licensingissues.html
Crystal seems to be taking a strange and ugly direction in licensing terms and treatment of external trainers and developers of instructional materials.

This forum has seen many requests for recommendations about instructional materials and trainers. I hope we recognize the threat these licensing terms pose to the interests of Crystal's user community (and even to the long-term market success of Crystal). I know that at least one Crystal manager monitors this discussion list, so post a reply (even if it's just a ); track developments on Ken's page; make some noise!

And I thought that Dilbert would run out of ideas...

Cheers,
- Ido

Visual CUT & DataLink Viewer:
view, e-mail, export, burst, distribute, and schedule Crystal Reports.
www.MilletSoftware.com

Read it once...read it twice...shook my head...

This is stupid on so many levels - not the least of which is that BOBJ doesn't have anything close to the capacity of available trainers (in-house or partners) to meet the demand for "quality" CR and CE training.

The Peck books (and similar resources) are a huge part of CR's success - having a broad base of official and unoffcial resources makes it more viable for small firms to use the CR/CE tool set.

If they keep doing this stuff they're just asking small to mid-size clients to move to MS Reporting Services...and eventually the big clients will follow because it is the path of least resistance.

Beyond the obvious stupidity of their approach, I highly question the legality.  While use of screenshots may have some protection, the ability to restrict independent trainers of crystal reports is, IMHO, a restraint of trade.  This is not legal.

Software Sales, Training, Implementation and Support for Macola, eSynergy, and Crystal Reports
www.gainfocus.biz

All,

Those were exactly my reactions. I cannot believe that this could be legal, and it can only be bad for BO's business in the long run.

-LB

Lbass nailed it.  I, like many other people in the IT trade I know, would love to not have to rely as heavily on Microsift as we do.  However if BO continues this line of thinking/non-thinking, I am going to be forced to embrace Microsoft's reporting tool.

BO, I hope you are reading this.

Software Sales, Training, Implementation and Support for Macola, eSynergy, and Crystal Reports
www.gainfocus.biz

Dear All,

I have to say that I heartily agree with the sentiments here.

A large portion of my business is Crystal Reports training, documentation, and support.  It is nice to see in writing from Beth Christopher, BO representative, that writing reports for customers, in other words - consulting, is ok.  Whew... I was worried about that one.

It seems to me that this has to be the one of the stupidest positions that a business has ever taken.  It is in Crystal's best interest to have a well trained user base.  Well trained users - use the software and upgrade.

I find it incredible that she states this is to benefit the users.

Quote:

..In order to ensure that the trainers of Crystal Reports products maintain the high quality that is expected with Business Objects software products.  To this end we have approved certain content providers to supply Crystal Reports training material to the Industry. ...

The course material and paying $4,000 to $20,000 doesn't ensure that the users get qualified training.  What it does is ensure a revenue stream for Crystal and their "approved content providers".

I would be amazed if their content providers had a manual that documents using Crystal to report against the application that I specifically train users to report on.  I have developed my courseware based upon a minimum of 10 years experience with Crystal and the software application which Crystal is used to report against.  

My clients are already peeved that Crystal continuously removes useful features added in one version of the software (obviously to hook you on the feature) off to Crystal Enterprise on the next.

I cannot tell you how many of my clients and other users of the software have asked about SQL Reporting Services.  Enough of them so that I have decided to get myself trained on MS's application so that I can reap the potential future business.

I am actually lucky in a sense that I only provide on-site training or public classes under the auspices of the software vendor for MagicTSD.  I advised them of the new training requirements and was advised that they have a separate agreement as an OEM partner and it wasn't a concern.

However, this is still a concern for me as I provide my own courseware for on-site classes.

Her letter states:

Quote:

If you only offer “onsite” training, please refer to Exhibit B for the only courseware
providers available to you.

I can hear the laughter now if I were to advise potential customers that we cannot use my custom manual .... but rather have to use an approved vendor of course material which is probably written against the "Northwinds" or Extreme.mdb.  

The whole point in hiring me to come onsite to do training is that it is specifically customized on training on the  use Crystal to report against this specific application.

I also think their requirement is a violation of fair use....

Get a clue Crystal.  

regards,

ro

Rosemary Lieberman
rosemary-at-microflo.com, www.microflo.com
Microflo provides expert consulting on MagicTSD and Crystal Reports.

You will get answers more quickly if you read this before posting: FAQ149-3762

Rosemary's point about developing Crystal classes and course-ware for reporting against specific applications/databases is a prime example of the gap between the "strategists" at BOBJ and the use of their tools in the Real World.

Thousands of small to mid-size application vendors use Crystal as the defacto reporting solution - and need to be able to train clients on how to report against their unique datasets. That was always highlighted in demos during the Crystal days, since the BOBJ merger - the focus appears to be only on large clients.

Crystal's core strength was always the range of users from "Mom and Pop" to Multinationals that could use the SAME tool to develop report content for themselves and their clients. It was the MS-Word of reporting software, with a wide variety of training available from different types of providers depending on your needs.

If BOBJ's current focus on their own revenue-stream continues to supress the "independent" trainer and user group communities it will only erode the base of customer support as the parent company is considered "...more trouble than they are worth."

It's rare that I would ever advise a company to be "more like Microsoft", but in this case that's exactly what BOBJ should do.

Accept the "independent" trainers, consultants, and user groups as an asset to the growth of a dominant product line for BI - and focus your high-end "Partner" training and consulting programs on the large companies that are looking for BOBJ certified solutions.  

MS-Reporting services is a'knockin' at the door...

Rosemary,

I believe you are correct on the fair use of screen shots.  And I have read court rulings to back that up.  That is probably why Vision Harvest/Fast Planet and the Ablaze group are simply ignoring the screen shot requirements put out by BO and preparing to defend against any suits brought.  

After your customers stop laughing they should contact Business Objects and let me know what they think.  They need to hear from a flood of angry users and this is just starting to happen.  The sad truth is we can be right but we still lose if they sue us and we have to defend in court.

Ken Hamady, On-site Custom Crystal Reports Training & Consulting
Public classes and individual training.
Guides for Formulas, Parameters, Subreports, VB, .NET, Tips and Tricks
http://www.kenhamady.com/

Another alternative is R&R reports.  If you can write crystal you can pick up R&R in less than a day, with only a few issues with slightly different syntax and/or function names.

I also strongly agree with Ken, we must let them know how we feel about this issue, and do everything possible to make sure our customers do the same.

Software Sales, Training, Implementation and Support for Macola, eSynergy, and Crystal Reports
www.gainfocus.biz

I would be pleased to add my protest.  I am an everyday user of Crystal, not particularly proficient but the amount of knowledge I have picked up here has been invaluable.  

Without the assistance of the professionals on tek-tips I and my colleagues would no doubt have needed to seek an alternative reporting solution.  

Should the opportunity to use your talents and experience for training purposes be withdrawn, the Crystal section of tek-tips would surely grind to a halt - we all appreciate that you need to earn a living whilst enhancing this community.  I also believe that this would be detrimental to the future prospects of Crystal Reporting.

I would like to thank you on behalf of my colleagues for
your invaluable assistance.

Kind Regards


jp

For those of you who want to send feedback to Business Objects (and don't have a sales rep to talk to) I have posted a list of the senior managers, board members and some primary stockholders on: www.kenhamady.com/licensingissues.html

Ken Hamady, On-site Custom Crystal Reports Training & Consulting
Public classes and individual training.
Guides for Formulas, Parameters, Subreports, VB, .NET, Tips and Tricks
http://www.kenhamady.com/

For those of you wishing to relay your discontent to an actual human, the BO International User Conference is scheduled for November 6-9 in Orlando, FL.
http://www.businessobjects.com/userconference

-dave

Dear All,

I also think that if you have any contacts within any vendors that include Crystal Reports with their software that you should contact them and have them officially make their thoughts known.

Maybe they will be swayed when their "biggest" customers start complaining on behalf of all of their clients.

Interestingly enough, if I hadn't seen this post then I would have never known about the issue.  I did a thorough search at BO's site and can find no references whatsoever.  

My reading of my license and the statement of internal business purposes would never be a flag to me as I consider offering training to be an integral business purpose and one of the reasons that my company exists.

I have contacted everyone I know to advise them of this issue.  What we need is visibility and reaction from BO.


regards,

ro

Rosemary Lieberman
rosemary-at-microflo.com, www.microflo.com
Microflo provides expert consulting on MagicTSD and Crystal Reports.

You will get answers more quickly if you read this before posting: FAQ149-3762

I have just started using Crystal Reports and found this site while searching the web in hopes of finding answers that the material from an approved training program couldn't answer.  I do not understand why any company would be have a problem with out side help of the people who not only use their product but in the grander picture pay their salary.  I for one will drop a program if I can't get it to do what I want and no one can give me a solution or work around for the problem.  There is need fro input on issues from the people who use it in the real world rather then the vacume some programers work from.  The real world is harsher and more demanding and the BRASS doesn't want to hear "I can't make the program do that!!".  I know where I work more than one person has been replaced for using that statment.  Let us get the help where we can because I for one can't afford most of the pricer training programs.

OldLoady

Rosemary,

Your comments on the phrase "Internal Business Purposes" are right on target and I have been trying to get this defined by example.  BO has already put in writing that consulting for a 3rd party can be considered IBP.  So I asked about using one copy of my sofware to teach a seminar to third party students.  They said that this was 'permitted' but wont clarify whether or not this is IBP.  They are now refusing to clarify further because they see where the logical conclusion is. Once they say that my teaching others is IBP, then I can use all of my software copies to accomplish my IBP.  The $20,000 classroom license becomes irrelevant.

I have added a copy of my Email dialogue with legal on the license issues page, along with info on a court ruling that shows that software screen shots can be used under fair use - even when used for commercial purposes.

Ken Hamady, On-site Custom Crystal Reports Training & Consulting
Public classes and individual training.
Guides for Formulas, Parameters, Subreports, VB, .NET, Tips and Tricks
http://www.kenhamady.com/

Ken has added two more topics to the information at http://www.kenhamady.com/licensingissues.html

* A court ruling that contradicts BO's policy on the use of Screenshots.

* Companies that are ignoring the new programs.

12 days ago, I had emailed two of the managers at BusinessObjects (from Ken's Key Decision Makers list). So far, no answer.  Has anyone else got a response?

Cheers,
- Ido

Visual CUT & DataLink Viewer:
view, e-mail, export, burst, distribute, and schedule Crystal Reports.
www.MilletSoftware.com

And tonight itBusiness.ca published an article about this:

http://www.itbusiness.ca/index.asp?theaction=61&;lid=1&;sid=59541  

Ken Hamady, On-site Custom Crystal Reports Training & Consulting
Public classes and individual training.
Guides for Formulas, Parameters, Subreports, VB, .NET, Tips and Tricks
http://www.kenhamady.com/

Although I am not a consultant or trainer I just can't believe that BO can be this stupid.  The folks at Crystal have made some mistakes in the past but this just takes the cake.  It seems like they are trying to do everything in their power to throw their market share of the reporting business to Microsoft.  Wake up BO.

We are an ISV that sells an application to insurance companies and uses Crystal for reporting.  I became aware of this issue via Ken H.'s newsletter (Thx Ken!).  At first I figured it had no application to my company, since we teach "private" classes to users of our software. These classes address writing reports using Crystal specifically and only in the context of our application.  But the more I read in this forum, the less certain I am.  I have raised this question with our BO account manager, and am waiting for his response.  Assuming I get one, I will post it here.  In the meantime, if anyone has an opinion about this particular scenario, I'd appreciate hearing it.  Thx!

Gary L. Levine
Dir S/W Development
SunGard
Gary.Levine@sungard.com

Several weeks after sending emails to high-level managers at BO I still haven't heard back from them. To me it seems like these folks don't agree with their organizations's policy on the matter, and rather than state this in writing (which could only mean trouble to the manager) they'd rather not engage in dialog at all.  

If your account manager responds, please share with us what he/she says.  If it's in writing (email), please also forward it to Ken...

Cheers,
- Ido

Visual CUT & DataLink Viewer:
view, e-mail, export, burst, distribute, and schedule Crystal Reports.
www.MilletSoftware.com

I am a Technical User and could not have begun to implement Crystal in our company without THIS FORUM and the venue in which discussions take place. I just briefly read through the comment here to get an overall feeling of the discussion.

My first comment has to do with Crystal Reports "Training". I recently attending one of their "intermediate" training classes and was amazed at what was discussed that had NOTHING TO DO with my particular business. We are a bankruptcy law firm here in Dallas. My point is, that here in forums like this AND in specialized training classes that can be targeted at individual users specific problems, THIS is where we get REAL WORLD solutions to REAL WORLD problems. The format for Crystal Training classes is not such that time can be spent discussing each persons reporting issues. Crystal will not be able to do so either.

I can confidentally say this. I came to this company in Aug04 and quickly noticed that their reporting tool of choise is MS SQL Reporting Tool. We have a very large SQL dept. I used Crystal reports back in 2000-2002 and remembered how good it was. So I recommended getting it here. We had version 9 which I have been using, and management has been so impressed with what I can do with CR9, that guess what, I recommended XI to them...and our new programs arrived today.

My point.... we would not have even invested in CR XI unless THIS forum and people/trainers like you where out there. So, thank you for ALL of your support and expertise.

All to the benefit of Business Objects Crystal Reportings.

I think a big THANK YOU should be in order from  BO CR to you trainers...., wouldn't you say????

Thanks:
Mike Vega

"What would you attempt to do... if you knew you could NOT fail?"

Here is an email thread from our BO Acct Mgr, regarding the CLA:

From: Ronald Buckley [mailto:Ronald.Buckley@businessobjects.com]
Sent: Thursday, August 04, 2005 9:55 AM
To: Levine, Gary
Subject: Opinion on CLA

 
Hi Gary,


Below is the response I got from my training dept.


To clarify the need for a CLA.

 
There are many OEM partners and their resellers who are offering a derivative form of Crystal Reports training on their specific application.  At this time, we are not requesting a CLA from them until they renew their OEM agreement with us. At that time we will revisit their training licenses.


However, if an OEM or reseller are offering the standard 2 day Crystal Reports RD I or RD 2 course in a public training environment, a CLA is required.


Let me know if you have more questions.


Thanks,


Ron

 


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Gary.Levine@sungard.com [mailto:Gary.Levine@sungard.com]
Sent: Thursday, July 28, 2005 2:48 PM
To: Ronald Buckley
Subject: Opinion on CLA
 

Hello Ron,

 
Thanks again for your previous help on clarification of the RCAPI license.  I have another license question for you.  I recently ran across a discussion of your CLA (Classroom License Agreement) for companies that offer classes on Crystal Reports.  This appears to be targeted to companies / individuals that offer public classes on Crystal.  We offer fee-based private training to our clients on how to use Crystal specifically and only with our application.  These classes are held either at our offices, or at the client’s site (their choice).  We use our own, internally developed training materials.


We are assuming that the CLA does not apply to us under these circumstances.  Can you please confirm?  Let me know if you need additional information.  Thanks.


Regards,

Gary

QUOTE - "There are many OEM partners and their resellers who are offering a derivative form of Crystal Reports training on their specific application.  At this time, we are not requesting a CLA from them until they renew their OEM agreement with us. At that time we will revisit their training licenses."

To me this translates as the crack-down on public classes being phase 1, then BOBJ will go after the application-specific Crystal classes next...and if you are an application developer who doesn't have an OEM then you will probably be on the hook for a training license now.

Anyone else interpret that differently...?

Hi Gary,

Thanks!  It is interesting to note that this statement relaxes things (temporarily at least) but only for "OEM partners and their resellers".  It's not clear if the same rule applies to independent trainers who are using their own training materials.

Could you try to get a clarification from the same guy?

Cheers,
- Ido

Visual CUT & DataLink Viewer:
view, e-mail, export, burst, distribute, and schedule Crystal Reports.
www.MilletSoftware.com

MJRBIM,

This is EXACTLY how I interpret this.  I am not going to stand by and watch my other collegues get screwed now, only to have it happen to me and my Macola-specific crystal training in 18 months.

Besides which, I get a fair amount of crystal revenue now from other packages.

Gary,

Please post whatever response you get and share it with Ken.

Software Sales, Training, Implementation and Support for Macola, eSynergy, and Crystal Reports
www.gainfocus.biz

Just an FYI .. I had requested further clarification from our BO rep on 8/4.  Haven't got a response back.  My guess is (as another poster eluded to), that BO doesn't completely understand the licensing themselves.  When (if?) I get a response, I will certainly post it here.

Gary

Just to stir up the pot a bit, I emailed every Macola reseller I know on this issue, with link's to Ken's site, this thread, Gary's dialog (monolog?) with BO, etc.  

I want this to be a real issue with the software companies that partner with Business Objects as well.

Software Sales, Training, Implementation and Support for Macola, eSynergy, and Crystal Reports
www.gainfocus.biz

I just spoke with a Solomon / Great Plains VAR and was told that Microsoft just discontinued their OEM course material for Crystal Reports.  No reason was given.  Anyone able to verify this or know if this is related to BO's new position?  

Ken Hamady, On-site Custom Crystal Reports Training & Consulting
Public classes and individual training.
Guides for Formulas, Parameters, Subreports, VB, .NET, Tips and Tricks
http://www.kenhamady.com/

One more update.   I recently received an official written  statement from BO that seems to contradict Dan Klein's letter about using software to teach public classes.  They have not responded to my request for clarification of the contradiction.  Those of you affected or interested in this might want to ask the same question.   See the following link for details:

  http://www.kenhamady.com/contradict.html

Ken Hamady, On-site Custom Crystal Reports Training & Consulting
Public classes and individual training.
Guides for Formulas, Parameters, Subreports, VB, .NET, Tips and Tricks
http://www.kenhamady.com/

I know this thread is old and all, but I just discovered the latest outrageous news about Crystal licensing, and I have to say something.

I have been using CR for report writing since 1997 (v5), and CE since v8.5.  Ever since they became Crystal Decisions, they have become more and more greedy.

I hoped they would see the light when Business Objects bought the Crystal line, but instead, it gets worse.  Why am I still using Crystal?

I have a MS SQL Reporting Svcs class coming up, and if I can see a way to use it for what I need, then it is bye-bye Crystal.  I used to recommend Crystal Reports to anyone who would listen, but those days are gone.

Jason
www.catotek.com

Interestingly, we've been exclusively using SQL Server Query Analyzer for the past 8 yrs for all of our Technology Reporting needs. When I came to work here about a year ago...I had about 3 yrs experience with Crystal Reports but was hired in a total accounting position. (I was not even seeking a position related to reporting)

But, I quickly noticed that we had many problems and concerns going on in our reporting department and immediately spoke up regarding Crystal. I told them I had some experience with it and I knew that it could handle the needs of the company.

We bought it and have even now updated to CR XI.

My point in saying all this is that I'm being asked now to create reports where our SQL Analyzer department has basically given up, because Query Analyzer is unable to handle the requests without many man hours of logic writing and higher paying programmers to use it.

Crystal is too powerful of a program to be thinking that getting rid of it will help the concern that is being spoken of on this thread.

Thank you.

MV

"A man is only as happy, as he makes up his mind to be...."

Jason,

Are you referring to the information above or to something new?  Care to elaborate?

By the way, I'm still hopeful that BO would listen. A couple of years ago, Ken Hamady applied similar pressure on the "Broadcast License" and I think this has yielded the easing of that restriction followed by its complete removal in Crystal XI.  

In other words, BO's managers are entitled to making mistakes.  It's up to us to clarify to them what the user community thinks about those mistakes, and hope they listen...

Cheers,
- Ido

Visual CUT & DataLink Viewer:
view, e-mail, export, burst, distribute, and schedule Crystal Reports.
www.MilletSoftware.com

Ido and MV, I think both of you make good points.  I have used Crystal to "save the day" so many times it is quite remarkable.  That is why I have loved it for so long.

But I cannot afford processor licenses, and having to name users in CE takes all my flexibility away.  At least with concurrent users I could have up to 5 at a time (like in CE 9 Standard).  We are not a large organization, but we are large enough to have 7-10 people wanting reports at once.

When I say "latest," I am not saying there is something new to report - I just learned today about the problem with them wanting extra money from trainers/instructors.  So it is the latest in a long line of such moves, beginning with when they wanted over $12,000 for 5 users of CE with Crystal 8.5, and continuing to when they quoted me almost $30,000 for a CE 9 setup, to when I learned that they were switching from concurrent to named users.

After upgrading to 9 a few years ago, I have not upgraded to 10 or 11.  I agree they are entitled to mistakes, and if they are changing their minds on things, I would love to hear about it.  I have hundreds of reports out there in my organization, and I still love what Crystal does.  Maybe if Ken and others are successful, it would restore my faith!

Thanks,

Jason
www.catotek.com

One other thing to consider is what will the "market place" allow? If Crystal IS....THE.... "A" number 1 reporting package, I think we are going to see them raise fees to better match what is dictaded in the market.

I mean if the next competitor is charging $30K for a 5 user setup for their "enterprise" package, why would Crystal think of charging less?

Personally, CR I think has pretty much evolved into such a powerful package that it was inevitable that they cost of the package would increase as well.

Side note, we've paid many thousands of dollars for our current SQL Server 2000 setup....and as I said in my previous posting....may end up shifting our reporting off of SQL Svr and onto a CR XI Enterprise setup>>>???

Question: Are other providers such as SQL Svr, Hiperion, or others...charging the fees that this thread is talking about? Or is it just BO CR that is doing this type of charge?

I appreciate your input.

Thank you.

MV

"A man is only as happy, as he makes up his mind to be...."

Actually, probably under the competitive pressure generated by Microsoft, the prices for various configurations of Crystal Enterprise or RAS have been going down.

I believe that at $7,500 you can get a reasonable entry-level RAS configuration.

I think this trend would continue since Business Objects and Crystal is popular but not immune from market forces.

Cheers,
- Ido

Visual CUT & DataLink Viewer:
view, e-mail, export, burst, distribute, and schedule Crystal Reports.
www.MilletSoftware.com

One of my biggest beefs is the "Depending On The Time Of Year" pricing.

I have seen a first-quarter $300,000 Enterprise quote drop to $125,000 when the Business Objects sales people were in the last few weeks of the fourth-quarter....just give me a $150,000 quote in the first-place and we wouldn't have wasted nine months.

While aggravating, this haggling mode is not unique to BO. For example, there are no prices shown for Cognos products on their web site. I agree with you that this generates an adversarial and untrusting relationship between the company and its customers.

Just as in handling car dealers, information is ammunition. Insights into end-of-period pricing tactics and unpublished pricing ranges are one of the benefits of going to user group meetings and participating in web forums like this one. Your message is a clear contribution in that respect...  

Cheers,
- Ido

Visual CUT & DataLink Viewer:
view, e-mail, export, burst, distribute, and schedule Crystal Reports.
www.MilletSoftware.com